People For the Ethical Treatment of Plants: 4 Reasons Why the “Plant Sentience” Argument Doesn’t Work

plants have feelings too, carrot, eating, plant sentience, pain, murder

Right… because cows don’t eat plants. [image credit: lerms]

Whether you’re a vegan who has been called a “plant murderer” by a non-vegan, a non-vegan who is trying (and failing) to be funny, or just someone with an affinity for plants, this is information you need to read.  The issue of plant sentience is being brought up more and more as a reason to justify the continued consumption and use of animal products.  There are, however, a few things wrong with this argument.  Here are four reasons the “plant sentience” argument doesn’t work:

1. Plants are not truly sentient

Though certain scientific studies have shown that plants can react to stimuli, these reactions do not point to sentience because they lack three basic qualifications for requiring sentience:

  • Sensory organs — Plants don’t have organs which enable them to see, hear, taste, etc. like animals do.
  • Variability of response — Animals have a conscious perception which acts as an intermediary between their environment and their many different behavioral responses to it.  Plants lack this variability in that they will react in the same manner regardless of different scenarios (ex.: growing toward the sun).
  • Appetite and locomotion — Nature has enabled animals to be sentient because they have the ability to move around.  As I discussed briefly in my post about “ethical meat”, pain exists to teach sentient creatures what stimuli to avoid in the same way that pleasure exists to teach sentient creatures what stimuli to seek.

Plants do not feel pain the way animals do because they have no reason for it.  If a plant had the means to get up and walk away from an area that was too dry, wet or cold, it would make sense for nature to enable the plant to feel pain.  Enabling a living organism to feel pain without the ability for that organism to alleviate that pain is not something done by nature unless by some sort of mutation (i.e.: a creature being born without limbs or with mental or physical disabilities).

For more information on the science and philosophy explaining why plants are not sentient, click here and here.

2. Logical fallacy: Tu Quoque

A person who uses the “plants have feelings too” argument is guilty of using the Tu Quoque (You Yourself Do It) logical fallacy.  This fallacy has to do with accusing your critic of being guilty of doing the same thing they accuse you of, even though the two situations being compared are not identical.  For example:

“If a vegan can kill plants, then I have the right to kill to animals.”

As I have illustrated above, plants are not sentient and comparing plant’s reactions to stimuli and animal’s proven sentience is not the same, and this renders your argument fallacious.

Taking the above into consideration, for the sake of argument I will ignore the fact that there are clear biological and ethical differences between killing a plant and killing an animal.  Even if there was hypothetically no difference between the two, it still would not change the fact that two wrongs don’t make a right.  For example, if I were to rob a convenience store would that somehow make it okay for you to steal someone’s car?

3. Non-vegans kill more plants than vegans do

Living a lifestyle which includes animal products kills more plants than living a vegan lifestyle because the animals used in these industries are almost exclusively herbivorous (plant-eaters), with many consuming huge amounts of grains, grasses and seeds to be converted into a much smaller amount of meat, dairy and eggs.  Because of this, a non-vegan consumes more plants indirectly than a vegan does directly.  In other words, vegans don’t filter their nutrients through someone else’s digestive system.

Furthermore, animal agriculture is not sustainable and is one of the leading causes of environmental damage, resource depletion, and ecological imbalance, which threatens all plant life, not just the ones consumed by humans.

  • 7 football fields worth of forest land is bulldozed every 60 seconds to create more room for farmed animals and the crops that feed them [The Smithsonian Institution]
  • 80% of all agricultural land in the US is used to raise animals for food and grow grain to feed them — that’s almost 50% of the total land mass of the continental US [Major Uses of Land in the United States by Marlow Vesterby and Kenneth S. Krupa]

If you really care about plants, you should go vegan.

4. The possibility of plant sentience does not minimize the reality of animal sentience

The improbable and unproven sentience of plants has no influence on the proven and blatantly obvious sentience of animals.  Regardless of whether you believe that someone mowing the lawn is decapitating thousands of blades of grass, it doesn’t change the fact that animals suffer so long as you continue to consume them.

As discussed above, unlike plants, animals do have reasons to be sentient.

  • Sensory organs, to feel and perceive the world around them (ex.: ears to listen for lurking predators, eyes to spy on prey, etc.)
  • Variability of response, to respond differently in different situations (ex.: a wildebeest will have different reactions depending on whether a wildebeest or a lion is approaching the herd)
  • Appetite and locomotion, to seek food through foraging or hunting, which requires the ability to move around.  In order for animals to learn what to move toward and what to move away from, they require the ability to perceive pain and pleasure in relation to the objects around them.


vegans are extreme, vegans are plant murderers, plant sentience, plants have feelings too

I don’t see the difference, do you?

In conclusion, because all living creatures must eat to survive, we must choose foods which cause the least amount of harm possible.  Eating animal products causes an extreme amount of harm for not only animals, but for slaughterhouse workers, our planet, and our very own bodies.   And while eating plants can certainly contribute to the harm of laborers, field mice, and the plants themselves, we must remember that this harm happens on a far larger scale in the production of animal products.

Most importantly, we can’t forget that because animals are sentient and because they have the ability to suffer, we mustn’t deny them their basic right to own their own life — to be free from the unnecessary harm that is inherent in all industries which exploit animals.  We must respect the rights of animals if we are indeed the ethical creatures we claim to be.

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247 responses to “People For the Ethical Treatment of Plants: 4 Reasons Why the “Plant Sentience” Argument Doesn’t Work

      • Hi– I always loved the responses to this. I still have debates with my spouse on plants as he keeps (misguided of course) trying to quote ‘science’ on plants having feelings. I told him as soon as my carrots grow legs and walks away or my apples start bleeding I will reconsider. As always great post. Missed seeing from you so I hope all is well on the sunny West Coast.

    • Thank you!!!!!!!! I was asked this question just last night at an animal activist event. Go some great answers now.

    • The flaw in your argument is your definition of sentience. Plants are alive on a level humans have barely begun to comprehend. I propose each of you “vegans” read a book called the secret life of plants. If you finish that book still feeling as though plants have no consciousness, then something may be wrong with you. Vegans should climb down off their high horses and realize we all consume sentient beings in one form or another, just because you can’t hear or see your food scream doesn’t mean it can’t.

      Even plants eat animals.

      • The fact still remains that whether or not plants are sentient, people still kill more of them by eating a diet containing animal products. You would know this if you would have taken the time to actually read my post before leaving a comment.

        • I’m not sure you can lay the consumption of vegetation by animals wholly at the door of those who consume animals.If people didnt eat those animals presumably you dont disagree with the fact that those animals would be consuming vegetation in any event (perhaps to a lesser degree)? The difference between the extra vegetation (if any) consumed by the animals because they are going to be eaten as compared to their normal consumption in the course of roaming free is what needs to be compared to those who are vegetarian/vegan. Then you will be in a better position to more accurately state whether carnivores do cause greater consumption of vegetation than vegetarians/vegans.

          I think the argument over what sentience is says a lot about our own state of spiritual enlightenment and scientific knowledge. Its something that ultimately transcends debates of vegans v carnivores and it is a shame that we have to be combative about this. Oh well.

          • Those animals wouldn’t exist if we didn’t breed them for human uses. “Roaming free” is not realistic. Domesticated pigs, as their species exists today, cannot live in the wild. They grow too large and their hooves begin to split under all their weight (from being artificially selected to grow larger, faster). Turkeys and chickens suffer reproductive medical issues and often need to have fluid drained from an inability to lay eggs properly. You can learn about these things and observe them for yourself at any farm animal sanctuary, who rescue domesticated livestock from places like farms that no longer have use for them.

            These animals were not bred for longevity. They were bred for one purpose: for humans to use. If humans stopped breeding them, they would all go extinct because they simply cannot survive on their own in the wild. And please do not attempt to argue for “conservation” of domesticated livestock, somehow trying to make a claim that because they would go extinct if we didn’t breed them that we are in any way doing them a favor by perpetuating their exploitation. They suffer needlessly and perpetuating that suffering does them no favors.

            Furthermore, livestock such as cattle do in fact consume more vegetation than humans do for the simple fact that a cow will consume food proportional to his or her size, just as humans do. Cows consume roughly 45 lbs. of food per day, whereas humans consume roughly 5 lbs. of food per day. A larger animal will require more food. It isn’t rocket science.

            There is no debate whether animals are sentient and can feel and understand pain and terror. It is an observable fact. This is why animal welfare regulations exist at all. This is the reason humans are able to decipher a dog’s cries and barks of joy, sorrow, and pain. This is why pain medication can be administered to humans and non-humans. There is as much of a debate about whether animals are sentient as there is a debate about whether evolution exists or whether gravity exists. We can call it a theory, but the evidence is all around us. Only the most stubborn, closed-minded people ignore facts they themselves can observe and choose to consider any of these an actual “debate.”

            • I suggest you do some research. Recently, more evidence has come out suggesting that plants are actually conscious on a human , or further, level. Simply Google “plant neurobiology.” you will no doubt find yourself shell shocked. Not only do plants have all of our senses, they have more. They recognize the death of otherbeings in their presence, plant or animal, and their death. They can learn and remember things.
              Everyone who eats something is killing something. I personally try to thank every item of food I eat, since the animal had to be killed (I eat organic meat free range and grown with love straight from my friendly butcher shop) and I thank my veggies, since most of them have been boiled or otherwise cooked alive. And they have more than 5 senses. And they are capable of producing anesthetic after receiving an injury. Do they feel pain? Maybe they do. Fruits I thank as well, but I generally just eat them. Unless they can survive the pressures and acidity, I imagine it’s much quicker than mything else.

              • Read the post, vegans consume fewer plants than non-vegans. If you truly believe the words you have written, you should go vegan to reduce both animal and plant suffering.

                • Vegans directly consume more plants than a meat-eater like me. I now live with a Vegan and don’t believe his lifestyle would be sustainable were it not for those who eat meat. He’s a astruggling musician without a lot of money and his specialised health foods cost sometimes extortionate amounts of money to produce. You could argue that the costs would go down if more people adoptied Veganism.. this has some foundation to it as we have seen the cost of certain organic foods like free-range hens eggs go down as popularity has increased, but ultimately a lot of the food products require special processes to create them, and they are never going to be super cheap in the way they’d need to be for a larger number of people to take them up. Veganism is a niche lifestyle choice ultimately and you are all welcome to it, but everyone else could do without the preachy holier than thou attitude you take towards everyone elses diet choices. Ultimately it’s none of your business what I choose to eat unless I decided to eat you, your kids or your pets.

              • PS: “Thanking” your “food” doesn’t do anything for them. All it does is make you feel better for doing something you know is wrong and avoidable (I’m living proof). It does absolutely nothing for the animal who has been murdered. It’s a self-centered, narcissistic attempt to rid you of the blame and make you feel like you’re not actually a person who would have someone murdered when they don’t need to be.

                PPS: There’s no such thing as a “friendly butcher.” I’ve been to many. Killing isn’t a friendly thing to do. If you disagree, maybe you should get in line with the animals and see how friendly you think it is then.

                • Even if there is plant intelligence (which I seriously doubt compares even remotely with animals and have yet to find anything in 25 years of research to suggest otherwise) then, as Vegan Rabbit has said, by eating only plants we save far more than meat eaters do. Also, humans have no need to eat animal products at all. Also we are wired to be herbivores, in the sub section frugivores, so eating meat is not only unecessary, contributes to more plant deaths and is also not a natural (although it may be normal in our day and age) thing for us to do.

                • “someone murdered when they don’t need to be”.. cows aren’t ‘someones’ sweetie.. they aren’t people. So it’s not murder. murder ˈməːdə/
                  noun: murder; plural noun: murders
                  1. the unlawful premeditated killing of one HUMAN BEING by another.

                  It’s slaughter, not murder.
                  Slaughter may refer to: Animal slaughter, killing animals for food.

                  Your use of such emotive and incorrect language is part of the problem. You are anthropomorphizing ie ascribing human form or attributes to an animal.

            • You do realize that if a pig gets
              out into the wild it becomes a boar. That it will grow fur and tusks and continue living. The debate isn’t who cause more damage. It’s that like religious fanatics you feel the need to push your opinions on other people. We are all part of Gaia and all sentient beings, non above the other. Except for those who only BELIEVE their way is the correct way and everyone else would be so much better following them. Because belonging to a group makes you feel special. And ultimately above other lowly people. Which makes you a bigot.

              • Well said JB. Religious fanatics is precisely what these people are. It’s got nothing to do with science. Nothing can trump the moral high ground they’ve perched themselves on. They are indeed sanctimonious. bigots of the worst kind.

                • Your earlier comment (which could not be replied to for some reason) said:-
                  ‘Vegans directly consume more plants than a meat-eater like me. I now live with a Vegan and don’t believe his lifestyle would be sustainable were it not for those who eat meat.’
                  You also said about your friend;-
                  ‘ his specialised health foods cost sometimes extortionate amounts of money to produce.’
                  1. Vegans do NOT consume more plants than a meat eater. You have tried to spin your sentence by saying DIRECTLY. That is the same as saying a meat eater who one day consumes a bowl of veggie soup is actually a vegan. A totally stupid comment by you again. When you eat meat you are eating the result of a large consumption of vegetables therefore your meal is the end consumption of a lot more vegetables than any vegan meal. Have you got that into your head yet?
                  2. A vegan’s lifestyle most definitely would be sustainable if people stopped eating meat. It is sustainable at the moment and would be more sustainable if no meat was consumed. Nice of you to make another stupid comment with nothing to back it up.
                  3. ANY specialised health foods be it for a meat eater or a vegan is expensive by definition. Many meat eaters take expensive supplements and many vegans do not so your comment is totally irrelevant and biased without any evidence AGAIN.

                  Once more a totally useless comment by Rex Dius (sic)

                • Lots of comments cannot be replied to on here.. for some reason… the thread doesn’t even display properly which makes following the posts difficult, not that what you say would be perfect sense even if the casual visitor to this page was able to read the comments in date order of posting.

                  You love your little lists don’t you, with your numbered points. I guess it makes you feel important… well, more important.. you have an enormous sense of self worth already.

                  1. Vegans DO consume more edible plants than meat-eaters. The premise of your childish refutation of my factual statement is based on a false premise. You assume, incorrectly, that all animals which meat-eaters consume, are raised on vegetation that human beings could consume directly.

                  Clearly this is false. If you had ever lived on a farm, raising animals, as I have, then you’d know that many food animals are grass fed. Humans cannot eat grass Paul, though you are most welcome to try. =)
                  I’m guessing you were referring to animals raised on grain (hardly a good food for humans, but a staple for many nonetheless granted). Other than grain what other human foods are commonly fed to food animals?
                  I don’t eat grain and wouldn’t even if I were to become a vegetarian, so a cow eating that fodder is no loss to me. Growing up the goats and cows on our farm ate grass, and in winter hay as well. Neighbouring farms fed fermented grass or silage to their livestock. But all grass. Sheep, deer and pigs… all ate grass. The chickens would have been fed grain, and roamed free in paddocks eating worms and bugs and stuff… we occasionally gave animals molasses if they were ill to pick them up and they had a salt block to lick. But nothing a human could or would eat.

                  So there’s a gaping flaw in your argument gramps. I can’t be bothered with the rest, you are a religious zealot. I’ve had debates with feminists and christians and atheist magicians who all thougth and spoke in the same self-righteous, pompous obstinate manner you do and you can’t enjoy any sort of adult debate with them. They are, like you, completely fixed, humourless and arrogant. But hey this is a vegan page right, so there’s not gonna be much open debate here. It’s a one-sided forum to start with, so I’m gonna leave you to dominate this page as you seem to have made yourself at home here. I’m not gonna bring it any more traffic. But you’re welcome to share your arrogant and wrong views on another, open forum, where a mixture of other people with other ideas can take part. Farewell

        • I actually did read your whole post, and I agree with Planeswalker. So perhaps you are – AGAIN – assuming things just because you in reality are bigoted.

          You have misunderstood the nature of the argument. It’s not about what *I* care about. It’s about what YOU CLAIM to care about.

          1) “it’s not animal sentience, so it doesn’t count”
          You do know they said that about animals, not so long ago, and still do? “Sure they feel pain, but they are not human so it doesn’t matter”.

          2) It’s not “if vegan can kill plants, then I have the right to kill animals”. “Plants are sentient” argument is showing the vegan’s selective moral grounds and bigotry. There are limits to what lifeforms a vegan eats, there are limits to what lifeforms I eat. I won’t eat primates, for example. A vegan draws the line in animalia, but has no problems eating fungi or plants or minerals, even though there is enough evidence of that there is more sense in plants than you are willing to admit.

          3) So…? It’s not ME who have problems with killing things just to feed me. It’s the vegans. So I’m not bothered the least of the fact that my food kills plants. I’m pointing out the fact that you too are killing to keep yourself alive. So you can just quit the goody-two-shoeing and stop believing you are morally higher than omnivores :-D

          BTW; Your reference to non-sustainability of animal agriculture is extremely limited to current industrial circumstances, and doesn’t consider any other forms of agriculture, which makes it practically invalid.

          4) Again, your problem, not mine. You keep arguing assuming that the things that are important to you are important to the people who are telling you “plants have feelings too”.

          Really, a sensible response would be, “yeah, I know, but eating meat causes more suffering to the lifeforms on this planet than eating veggies, that’s why I choose to limit my killing to plants and fungi”. But I suppose you want to feel morally superior and somehow compensated for your decision. “I may not eat bacon, but at least I have a clean conscience”.

          I have absolutely nothing against people’s diets, what ever they are, but I have a lot against people trying to prove others wrong simply because they have made different choices. It’s like you are really not OK for being a vegan, and must “spread the misery”, make more people share your suffering, to feel better about your own. Why can’t you just be a happy vegan and eat what you like and enjoy it, and spread that pleasure and joy and happiness?
          Why be a doomsday prophet and whine about what other people do?
          And why do it in a way that insults people who have a wider understanding of “sentient lifeforms” than you yourself do?



            • If YOU feel you have been separated from nature, then that is entirely YOUR problem and only you can do anything about it. It is quite easy, even if you live in the densest urban population to take the trouble to get out into truly wilderness areas where you can experience your true nature of being one with the rest of Nature. Once you have done that, it stays with you and you can be aware of it even within a city park.

              People here talk as if the only animals bred for meat are “factory farmed”. This is untrue. The majority of animals per human head, worldwide roam on natural pasture land. From cattle herds in Africa, the Reindeer of the Sami, Sheep in Wales and the UK, vast herds and flocks in Australia…..all over the world, animals live an outdoor life pretty much as they would do if they were totally “wild”. What are you guys saying? That if we didn’t have herds of meat animals then we should keep these areas barren and devoid of animals? or worse still build over it for our own greed? If we didn’t manage meat animals, there would hopefully STILL be herds of ungulates roaming these lands.

              Instead of getting all irate with your bigoted ideas of what is right and wrong based on your half baked emotion and perceived ideas, Get OUT there people, COMMUNE with nature…. understand where YOU stand within the family of Nature that we all belong to. When you do this you will find we are a very small part of a huge integrated family of life that relies and is sustained purely by everything (plants and animals) living and dying for others to live and die. There is nothing wrong with animals dying to provide food for others. It is how it works. In Nature very few animals die peacefully of old age, they are killed bu others. Spend a bit of time with true Nature and you will find that most of these ideas and beliefs of modern “disconnected” urban ans suburban living don’t hole any credence at all.

              A bit of a rant, but quite simply, If you feel disconnected, then do something about it. The real world of Nature is still very much out there. Get out there, become friends with it again and you might learn the true value of life and death . You might learn that it is ok to kill, and you might learn that you too are very much a prey animal in some other animals’ eyes.

          • If you truly do not see the difference between killing an animal and a plant, then I don’t know what else to say except that…in fact, most plants/trees give up their food for the seeds to be spread, so the “mother” plant doesn’t have to be killed. By the way, I don’t think vegans want to “feel morally superior”, most of us are just concerned with suffering, and we know that a sentient being feels pain and emotion. I’m not whining when I defend animals, I’m giving them a voice.

          • The reason vegans talk about veganism is because – IF you were sitting down to a dinner of say – baby calf or baby lamb and your daughters were out in the shed out back and being raped or tortured or killed – you would not be enjoying your dinner very much and would want to go out there and stop the torture and the violence to your daughters. When we are connected to our spirit – we are connected to all beautiful living animals that feel pain when they or their babies are tortured. When carnists (people who choose to eat animals and their secretions) eat animals – it is so painful for vegans to know and realize the facts of the system and what Big Agro is getting away with because — we are soulfully connected to these helpless beings. When these beautiful creatures who have done NO HARM to anyone and are THE MOST PEACEFUL beings on the planet and just want to live their life and love their babies and enjoy ‘being’ are being tortured and degraded and harmed in every possible way and raped – their babies kidnapped and then eventually slaughtered way before their lifespan has even begun – YES – someone needs to speak for the voiceless. That is why vegans are putting their words out there in as many places as possible and talking to as many non-vegans/pre-vegans as possible so that carnists will know they are doing harm. Carnists cause harm to their bodies (eating meat and dairy is the CAUSE of every disease from heart, to cancer, to arthritis, to alzheimers, to osteoporosis) harm to the planet (they are tearing down the precious rain forest at one acre/second (see documentary -Cowspiracy) to put food for cows or putting cows there so people can have their steak) – people of our world are starving because food is being passed through an animal rather than being fed directly to the starving people – animals are being tortured – 10,000 years of oppression of women is being allowed to continue because of the rape and kidnap of animal babies and theft of mother milk. The list NEVER ENDS about why we all need to go vegan YESTERDAY. Please wake up and consider the proper way to look at ‘all life’ including that of precious animals – not just Big Agro to get away with endlessly advertising and promoting the taste for corpse and secretions to line their pockets and tear down our earth while doing it.

            • OMG, I’m totally using this post as an example of the typical vegan / feminist you find online. It’s a classic.

              You refer to animals and their babies being kidnapped, tortured and raped, and do so repeatedly. Just keeping on saying the same thing over and over does not make for a solid argument. Who rapes baby cows? Who tortures them? Yes they are killed, can’t disagree with that. And if the method of slaughter is not humane, you could argue that it’s torturous and I condemn that of course.

              Grand sweeping statements follow about EVERY disease humans suffer coming from eating meat when there’s evidence in some studies showing high consumption of certain plant products, especially oils and sugar, causes significant damage to the human body.

              Lastly, the totally irrelevant and incorrect statements about female oppression for 10,000 years *rolls eyes* because of…. well.. milking cows… Really? You feminists will literally grab hold of anything.

              Your entire post was nothing short of an emotionally over-wrought diatribe. You sound hysterical and in need a slap to snap you out of it like in the old movies. There’s no logical to most of what vegans and feminists post though just emotion and that’s why I will be using this classic post to help teach others about your movements.

              Oh and you put the cherry on the top by mentioning Cowspiracy haha. You are a real gem Janet.

            • Janet, ignore Rex Duis. He has been shown up constantly by many people on this thread. His comments are ludicrous and incredibly easy to rip apart. He cannot provide ANY evidence to back his claims up but instead just like to hurl abuse at people. He only has ad hominem attacks as he has no knowledge of the subject matter and is here just to troll.
              Don’t get involved in pointless debate with the kid.

              • Thanks Paul for the clarification. I F I do sound hysterical Rex – maybe it’s because I actually have a heart that beats and feels and cares about something other than just me, myself and I — and have taken the time to notice what is Really going on like, eh?

                • No Janet you have a heart that is based on very little understanding of the reality of life. You have to admit that your post is somewhat emotional and ott in many of ideas you put forward. Human morals and ethics are human based, for our society. They don’t marry easily with the reality of life if we allow them to spill over into relating to non human life as well. It is ok if they do, but it is NOT ok if in doing so they start causing YOU grief and pain. You beat yourself up. That is not acceptable. All of life outside human existence does NOT beat itself up over such issues. Life, death, the norm of violent end to llife, these are issues that only humans worry about, no other creature even thinks about it. That should tell you something as to where we lay our values of what is right and wrong.

                  Life is too short and (to us) too beautiful for you to spend ranting over natural things that we consider unnatural simply because it is us ourselves who have become distorted from the reality of life.

                  Beautiful is probably the wrong word, but there is a “rightness” and wonderful symetry in the fact that Nature is sustained through all things living and dying that others might live and die. We are one tiny part of a cycle. And it is THAT that makes us all immortal. The expression “not being able to see the wood for the trees” should, more aptly for humans be ” Not being able to see the totality of things because too many humans are in the way…..Think about it.

      • First, read the post before commenting with your ill-informed opinions.

        Second, Cleve Backster’s experiments have been disproved by the scientific community.So if you take science seriously, you’re telling me there’s something wrong with you?

        Third, no one really thinks that the act of eating a dog and a tomato is the same. If you do, you are crazy.

        • Bill, there is a whole lot of work going on by plant scientists in institutions all over the world researching the nature of plants. In the last few decades work is showing that there is far more to the life of plants that we ever thought before. To dismiss it all simply on the basis of Cleve Backster’s ideas is, if you don’t mind me saying do, a little patronizing and glib.

          Why do people have an issue with us beginning to understand that plants are living sentient creatures? I don’t understand it. Are people denying it by pulling the wool over their eyes because they don’t want to face their erroneous feelings of guilt at killing something to stay alive? Folks… it is ok to kill to eat…..really it is. Nature does not use sentiency as a criteria for why things should not be killed.

      • Consciousness is not the same as individual sentience. It could be argued that the entire planet – the entire universe even – is alive and has some sort of consciousness. But that isn’t the same as each blade of grass being aware of itself as an individual being. We KNOW that each animal IS aware of itself as an individual. It is illogical to continue to torture and kill animals – whom we KNOW are individually aware – just because plants have ‘some sort of consciousness.’ That makes no sense at all. Pick a few lettuce leaves and the plant makes more leaves. Cut the leg off a cow and she won’t grow another leg. That is a clue.

        • Pick a leg or an arm off a salamander and the salamander makes more limbs. Pull a potatoe out of the ground and that’s it, no more potatoes will grow.

          Great clue. Can you count to potatoe?

          • Total misunderstanding of what an analogy is.
            If you want to use just about the only animal that will regrow limbs then think about your analogy. You talked about removing a potato and no more potatoes will grow. Therefore if you are removing the potato you must also remove the salamander and lo and behold no more salamanders will grow.

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  2. Excellent post! Very perceptive, well written and argued with great spirit. There’s one more Fallacy that I would highlight here and that is Fallacy 5: Those who argue that plants are sentient feel compassion for plants. They never do. They never will. They eat plants, just as they eat animals. If they’re genuinely moved by scattered scientific studies that say plants may react to certain stimuli or use subtle means to communicate, then why aren’t they moved by far more striking signs of life from the animals they eat? If their concern stems from real compassion, then let them figure out a way to survive without consuming either. Good luck with that one.

    • Thank you for pointing out that fallacy! True, when non-vegans use the plant sentience argument they are nearing the end of their rope (made obvious by using arguments which incriminate themselves). If they really did care about plants then a fruitarian diet would be as close as someone could get to causing the least amount of harm. That and sitting in one spot, never moving around.

      Sometimes, when I call non-vegans out on this, they say something along the lines of “but I’M not the one who cares about not killing living things — YOU (the vegan) are”. What would your response be in that situation?

        • Good one, CQ. From there we can go into how if we consider ourselves as humans as having higher cognitive abilities (like many non-vegans seem to be so intent on pointing out), then what is the argument against using those abilities to make ethical choices?

      • Thanks for the post Vegan Rabbit. One thing to note though. No one knows for certain whether or not plants can suffer and feel pain. But yes, if we know for sure fauna / animals suffer and feel pain, we should do the best we can to leave them off our plate. For these reasons, to lower my impact, I am on a fruitarian diet. Hopefully all things go well and I can continue living on this :)

  3. Great response, but there’s a few points I’ve used in this argument previously that you forgot to mention…..plants have evolved fruits & nuts specifically to be eaten, it is their entire reason for being & the only way they can reproduce, likewise grasses & many other plants do not die when consumed but grow back stronger & thicker than ever. Growing plants soaks up greenhouse gasses instead of creating them & eating plants is good for your health & helps cure diseases whereas eating meat & dairy is just bad for you & causes diabetes, cancer, heart disease, osteoporosis, atherosclerosis etc…..

      • We can live a healthy life without needing to kill animals for food. Animals are beings who are capable of feeling and experiencing pain and joy — we too, are animals. Meat itself isn’t healthy, just certain things like iron and magnesium are. But these are things that are readily available in plant foods. If we can live a healthy life and get our nutrition from plant-sources, minus the fat, cholesterol, and cruelty present in animal foods, what is the ethical and nutritional reason not to?

        • “Meat itself isn’t healthy, just certain things like iron and magnesium are.”

          seriously, read that sentence again. that’s similar to saying vegetables are not healthy, just their nutrients.

          you lose all your credibility when you blindly say “meat is not healthy”. fact is, they are, and it’s how you consume it that makes it unhealthy, just like potatoes are healthy unless your diet consists of nothing but french fries.

          if you choose to be a vegan, vegetarian, omnivore, or carnivore, that’s fine, it’s your choice, but don’t deny facts.

          also, us human beings as animals are omnivores and our body is designed to consume meat and veggies, and that’s a fact.

          • I am a vegetarian, but I completely agree that the human digestive system and our teeth are designed to digest both meat and vegetables. We can survive on only a plant-based diet (with the added b-12 vitamin), but humans cannot survive on a meat only diet.

            We have canines AND molars. Carnivores have sharp teeth in the front to bite and hold, and their ‘molars’, which are also very sharp, are used for slicing. Herbivores only have flat molars, since they don’t have to worry about their food escaping, they use their front teeth like pruning sheers and their back teeth for grinding. Omnivores have a combination of both types.

            Anyway, I am the kind of vegetarian that doesn’t mind people that go fishing and eat what they catch, and fish is ONLY healthy (there is nothing unhealthy about fish), nor am I against people consuming meat if it isn’t coming from the horrific farms.

            If I hated human beings that chose to have an omnivorous diet (which is truly how we are designed) I’d have to hate all other omnivorous creatures for eating animals instead of vegetables. Even if we can ‘decide’ and animals don’t know better, many humans choose to include meat in their diet for the same reason other omnivorous animals do. It isn’t against nature to consume animals. It IS, however, against nature to breed them, pump them full of hormones, torture them, give them unfit living conditions, etc all for the sake of consumption!!!

            Stop trying to fight an extreme one-sighted fight, and fight the people that are really in the wrong.

            • How come we can’t tare the flesh off of an animal and just eat it’s flesh? Our teeth are NOT sharp enough. How come we have to cook it to make it (more) edible? Certainly, it’s not because we are a more ‘civilized’ society (we are only better at creating illusions of it). Science does not support this ideology, more of it supports that our digestive tracts are, ‘in fact’, in alignment with our fellow herbivore beings. As shown in this one article of many,

              • Advocate4peace – You have a very basic and limited mindset to come out with such child-like comments. They are typical though of Vegans. You just swallow propaganda from documentaries and get all emotional and stop using your rational minds.

                Human teeth do masticate flesh, they just aren’t like those of a lion which has only it’s teeth and claws to use. Humans have opposable thumbs and can manipulate tools like many primates, so we replaced our need for large teeth and claws and now use tools to get what we want. That doesn’t mean we no longer need to eat meat, it simply means we have more efficient tools for obtaining it. So you have no argument there.

                Humans do not have to cook meat to consume it. Cooking has the benefit of killing off harmful bacteria and improving taste for some, but it in fact makes it a lot harder to digest. A rare steak is easier on the stomach than one that is well done, for example. Humans developed many diverse cultures around the world, and some of them still to this day include consumption of some raw meats. Sushi is perhaps the best example of that but there are others.

                Your completely wrong about digest tract science… it does not support us obviously being herbivores at all. The science in fact shows that we have evolved away from being herbivores a very long time ago. Most herbivores have multi-chambered stomachs or swallow gizzard stones or have other special adaptive features that we lack, which enable them to get nutrition from the plants they eat. Even so, only 20% of their total nutrition actually comes from the plants themselves, the other 80% in fact comes from the bacteria they culture in their stomachs, meaning that actually, even herbivores are largely eating flesh creatures, which wipes away your arguments for human beings solely existing on plants.

                Even if we did have an identical digestive system to a cow, which we really don’t, the cow is still culturing bacteria in it’s stomach to feed off, which we can’t and don’t do. You have a limited understanding of animal biology clearly, like most vegans. Expand your mind and see the larger picture. I’m not saying you should choose now to eat meat, I respect whatever reasons you have for not consuming it, but you’re extending that believe into the condemnation of others which is wrong when you have so basic an understanding of what you’re talking about.

                • You obviously have no knowledge of nutrition or our digestive tract which is typical to that of a herbivore. It has no similarity whatsoever to that of an omnivore or carnivore. If you had read the earlier links you will see that this has been gone into in great detail.
                  As for that absurd comment about only 20% of nutrition coming from plants I almost had to stop myself falling off my chair laughing. Which of your mates down the pub told you that gem of misinformation? I would love to see any of your herbivores exist if they cut out their plant food and relied on your 80%. It really is a joke. Try cutting out 80% of any animals diet and they will die of starvation.
                  Most herbivores have chambered stomachs??????? REALLY??????? I think you need to revisit this sentence as it is totally incorrect.
                  Show me the science that shows we have evolved away from a herbivorous diet. We have not changed in ANY anatomical or physiological way whatsoever.
                  Please stop inventing things and believing your own inventions.

                • You also have either deliberately misunderstood or actually have no knowledge of what a herbivore is. Ruminants are herbivores but herbivores are not necessarily ruminants. Humans are herbivores but are in a sub category of frugivores which is why we do not have chambered stomachs like ruminants. Am I going slowly enough for you to understand? Herbivores are anatomically and physiologically designed to eat plant matter which can be grass, leaves, fruit, nuts etc but NOT meat. Each species of herbivore has an optimum diet and ours is vegetables, nuts, berries, fruit but not things like leaves and grass that some other herbivores eat.

            • Rubbish, who said humans could not live off a meat-only diet? Ever heard of Atkins and Paleo diets? They mostly use meat or animal by-products in them with the addition of perhaps a few berries and nuts. How exactly would you die eating meat only? I’ve done it myself in the past and I’m still alive.

              I just wanna add here though that your attitude in general is refreshing. Live and let live is a great way to be. I don’t believe in animals being hurt or treated badly either and think there are better ways to produce meat than via factory farming.

              • I’m pretty sure killing falls under the category of “hurting.” Also, Robert Atkins, the creator of the Atkins diet, had a history of heart attack and congestive heart failure in addition to being overweight. Paleo diets include many non-meat foods. Neither of your examples cite diets which exclusively consist of non-animal foods. The point Amanda is making is that while it is NOT possible for the vast majority of people to live a long and healthy life eating a diet of animal foods (various types of meat, dairy, eggs, gelatin, etc.) and absolutely nothing else, it IS possible for the vast majority of people to live a long and healthy life eating a diet of only non-animal foods (vegetables, fruits, nuts, seeds, legumes, fungi), and that this observable fact should make people at least question the validity of the “animal products are necessary” argument.

              • Atkins diet? I think you need to research this as the side effects are well documented and no one can survive for a long time off this. Many studies have been done showing physical and mental deterioration after long periods on this type of regime. The races on this planet with the worst health problems are those with the highest consumption of meat. This is constantly reported in medical magazine, health journals, the media etc.

                • Paul Hughes, you’re just a ‘nutritionist’, nothing morning. Not a doctor or a GP. I happen to eat the diet I support because I put my money where my mouth is, and the blood test results I had done in July 2012 and again about 2 weeks ago prove you are completely wrong, you big-headed idiot. They are textbook perfect. My cholesterol was slightly over the recommended maximum, other than that, textbook perfect. Stop swallowing all that propaganda you read and worse, regurgitating it as if it were fact to ‘inform’ others.

                • *morning = more.

                  “This is constantly reported in medical magazine, health journals, the media etc.”

                  Listen to what you said… constantly being repeated. Yes, that is true. You don’t happen to watch or worse believe Fox news propaganda show by any chance do you? If you actually believe things the media repeats your a fool and should definitely not be getting paid to give information and advice to others on their health. You’re a parrot. I’ve heard all your ‘facts’ before. I read the same trash news articles you have. And a few of the more dishonest studies those rags drew their twisted information from. It’s frightningly easy to validate false data by simply repeating it till everyone believes it to be true.

                • Doctor or GP????? You do realise how much nutritional training a doctor or GP gets? Between 2 and 6 hours in their TOTAL training. Sure believe them if you want to have poor nutritional info.
                  Textbook perfect???? Then you say your cholestrol is over the recommended MAXIMUM. Doesn’t sound anywhere near perfect at all. One person does not a study make. Some smokers live past 100. Some non smokers die very early – so according to your logic smoking helps you live longer?

          • Human beings are most definitely not omnivores. I am a physiologist and have spent nearly 25 years in this area and the evidence is overwhelming that physiologically and anatomically (as well as historically) humans are not omnivores. We are herbivores/frugivores.
            Take a trip to your local library and get out some books on comparative anatomy and physiology and you will see that I am correct here. No need to believe me but just research it yourselves.

            • Interesting that I received two thumbs down but no one actually commented as to why they thought I was wrong. Maybe because they just did not like to be wrong?

              • 6 thumbs down now and maybe they didn’t want to be drawn into a debate with a know-all who is clearly itching for just such a debate. Spending ’25 years in this area’ does not make you infallible, whatever ‘in this area’ is supposed to mean. You can still be wrong. 6 thumbs down so far from people who simply disagree with your statement that we are not omnivorous, perhaps?

                • Or perhaps because I am correct and you are wrong which people here have clearly shown. 25 years does not make me infallible, true, but it certainly gives me extensive knowledge and training and the ability to back up what I say with facts. Whereas you simply post your own opinion without anything to help your arguments.
                  Also 25 years in this area means I am constantly in discussion with my colleagues in this area who also agree with what I say as the evidence backs up what we believe.
                  How long have you spent studying this area and working in it?

                • By the way. In answer to your question – ‘who is the idiot here’ then it is quite obviously you as you seem to think we should eat the same food as a cow. hmmmmmm and you don’t think you are an idiot?
                  I am happy to discuss this in great detail with you any time and will give you links to well referenced articles from Universities (Yale Harvard John Hopkins etc), magazines (Reader’s digest, Nature, New Scientist etc) and from world renowned paleontologists and anthropologists (Richard Dawkins, Professor Alice Roberts etc).
                  So far you have given no links at all but have just given your opinions (which I have shot down very easily indeed). You will not go to the library and get out books (your choice by the way, I am not going to influence you at all) on comparative anatomy and physiology. These books will go into IMMENSE detail on our bodies and what we are designed to eat (not like a ruminant by the way lol).
                  when you have read some of these books then please come back and I will accept your apology for not having the necessary information on which to base your opinions (incorrectly).
                  As I said before, I am highly qualified in this area and have spent 25 years doing in depth research whereas you just chat to your mates down the pub to get your information.
                  Sorry for the insults but I am being brutally frank in the hope that you will actually read something of relevance instead of the rubbish you have been looking at on which you have formed your opinions.
                  Have a good day sir.

              • Further to your not being infallible remark. You are correct of course and like most people I do not like to be wrong but when I am wrong it means I have learnt something. This is what you must take on board too.
                Roger Federer is not infallible but if he gave me advice on tennis and you gave me advice on tennis I know who would be likely to be correct 999 times out of a thousand.
                I am not infallible but as I back up all of my claims with evidence and you cannot and I also suggest to people to go to the library and get out some books on comparative anatomy and physiology which will show that I am correct in what I am saying then I suggest that although not infallible I am indeed correct on this.
                Good qualifications in physiology and nutrition plus 25 years working in that area plus many field trips to ancient sites to study early humans and pre humans also help my credibility.

                • You’ve not really provided any ‘evidence’ you have shared a couple of links to the same tired old crao that every Vegan links to. Next you’ll be saying I’ve got to watch ‘Cowspiracy’. I already did.. well 18 minutes of it then youtube deleted the users account for piracy but i saw enough.
                  For an alternative comparison on animal digestive tracts check out Dr. Barry Groves ‘Second Opinions’ website. He unfortunately passed away a couple of years back but I remember speaking to him over email once a few months before and his articles are extremely well cited. He i the one who talks about the way ruminants get their energy from food.

                • Idiot. Humans are not ruminants so we get our energy completely differently. You should learn about anatomy and physiology before making a fool of yourself by making comments that are soooooo wrong they are laughable.

                • By the way. I am not even vegan so I have no biased interest in this. You give opinions whereas I give links (with good references) and have asked you continually to get out some books on comparative anatomy and physiology. Also any comment of yours that I have shown to be incorrect you just ignore and go on to something else which shows that I am correct and you are wrong. At least if you make a stupid comment then try and back it up with information and not just your own viewpoint or your own experience. You have the classic attitude of a troll who knows he is incorrect and just passes on every time he is proved wrong instead of trying to justify and prove what he says.

                • Ok.I I just realised u sent me fouR replies there with the.same crap in them as before and ad hom Attacks. You’re terribly simple minded and also clearly brainwashed. You don’t say anything new. I’ve had this.conversation before with many others and the arguments, rhetoric and words used were all identical. Its like debating with a clone and worse One who thinks he knows it.all. theres no.point continuing.this. Like I.said.from the beginning you were spoiling to habe an.argument like this which is why was biting.when u posted.your crap oN here and you’ve proved them right engage with You. I’m doing very well with my health thanks. And will continue To enjoy eating lovely meat and animal products. You.go.enjoy your plants and keep your nose out.of my fridge and dinner plate thanks.

                • We DONT eat the same diet as a ruminant. You are showing with every comment how little you know about the subject matter.
                  I will try to explain it even more simply just for you.
                  Ruminants are herbivores true but herbivores are not necessarily ruminants. Elephants are mammals but mammals are not necessarily elephants. Understand?
                  Ranivours are carnivores but carnivores are not necessarily ranivours.
                  Frugivores (like humans) are herbivores but herbivores are not necessarily frugivores – some of them are ruminants.
                  Got it now?

                • I suggest mate that you go over all the posts you’ve made on this page. You sound like a parrot and a prat. You claim I discuss human anatomy and digestion in ‘pubs with my mates’ about 3 times so far. I don’t think I’ve ever done that once. You also claim I have ‘classic troll behaviour’… look at your posts man…. classic kow-it-all trolling and all the insults on my intellect scream of an old man who is insecure and needing to bolster his ego on a vegan web page chat thread by insulting others. Your ‘arguments’ and ‘points’ aside, whether right or wrong, your behaviour is clearly not conducive to a mature discussion and thus you have not been treated to one. While i’m off in the library reading all your links to prove you are right perhaps you might run off to a therapist or counsellor to talk out why you have such an ego and simultaneous inferiority complex that you need to dominate a chat thread and speak like this. You’re also extremely defensive for one so confident. 4 replies to a single post is excessive and I won’t be reading any more. You’re acting like a 5 year old and it’s embarrassing frankly. Grow up.

                • I suggest ‘mate’ that you spend some time looking at the information I have given and then you can come back and apologise for being a total idiot.
                  Strange that when you are proved wrong you have a go at me and call me names. I also suggest ‘mate’ that you look back at my 4 replies to a single post. I replied to each of your comments on different areas of this thread because you were in error in each of your comments. I then provided further information and asked you questions which you have made no attempt to answer because you could not. So you resort to name calling (big ego and inferiority complex?????? hmmm I think you should revisit that sentence). Defensive????? Sure I will give information to prove myself correct when silly comments that are blatantly untrue are given by people like yourself so if that is being defensive then I accept it. You, however are extremely aggressive and get even more so when shown to be in error. This is a typical bully boy tactic but done behind a PC screen which is typical of a coward.
                  Please enjoy your trip to the library and when you come back I will still await your apology.
                  Interesting you call me ‘insecure, confident, inferiority complex, defensive, big ego……’. You seem to be contradicting yourself there. Perhaps you should look up the words and understand them a bit more.

                • Its entirely possible to be both pompous as you clearly are and insecure at the same time.

                  Pompous because you go on and on about how you know more and how I need to go to libraries. (Very old fashioned and out of date By the way. Surely the best way to stay up to date Paul would be to do research online. The results of research projects often taken years to analyse and even longer to get published in print, while online information is available much more quickly including info that is still being chewed over by scientists and academics. This perhaps explains why the way you speak is so out of date).

                  Insecure, because a confident secure man of your age and supposed experience or learning would not bother replying to someone who he himself describes as a classic troll.

                  As I suspected from before I had even posted to you once, you are the type who is spoiling for a ‘debate’ ie lecture, because you need it to boost that ego and gain superiority over others. You’ve done neither with me I’m afraid. The fact you keep repeating yourself says you haven’t really managed to feel superior and your immature tone gives away your insecurity. Your posts translate as ‘I’m right, your wrong so there!’. As I said, grow up. And don’t take me to task for ‘calling you names when you’ve done the same all the way through. How old are you? 5?.

                • I suggest you continue your research. You obviously have never done any real research as looking for things online gives a very abbreviated result. As you correctly say, online information is information that often has not been accepted but it just thrown out there for people to look at. If you are happy believing that then that is your choice. I prefer to be involved in the entire process and to see the final results that is printed in great depth with references. This is the problem with online discussions like this thread – single comments being debunked doesn’t do much. That being said I notice you have turned the conversation quite neatly away from the subject matter. You have not answered any of the questions I asked you or come back with any counter arguments to my rebuttals. That is why I called you a troll because you have the hit and run techniques that are typical of trolling. You make a comment and when it is showed to be incorrect or when questions are asked you neatly sidestep and move on. The very first word or your first comment was designed to stir up trouble. You started with ‘Rubbish’. You have been the aggressor at every stage of this ‘debate’ but you don’t like it when someone pushed back at you especially when you are shown to be wrong. Your second comment started with – ‘You have a very basic and limited mindset to come out with such child-like comments. They are typical though of Vegans.’ Here you carry on with insults and ad hominem attacks and then insult an entire group of people and make a totally unsubstantiated comment. However when someone says anything about you then you get all upset and cry and whinge about it. Typical bully boy tactics – great until someone stands up to you. Finally because you can contribute nothing more to the topic as you have been shown up you resort to making silly insults to me which, quite frankly, are like water off a duck’s back. I have dealt with people like you for a long time and actually feel sorry for the straws you are grasping.
                  At least we have got to the stage where further comments are not needed. Please go and troll another post. We are finished with you here.

      • Aaaaah, we arrive at the point – WE TOO ARE ANIMALS…therefore, the vegan position is a selfish one (at least the post akniwledges that it is totally arbitrary), because “it reminds us of us, so we shouldn’t harm it”…but, plants and fungi don’t look like us in any way, so it’s ok to kill them, right?

        The post does a great job of explaining that plants don’t have animal sentience, but that is not really a breakthrough, is it? I would expect that plants have what I would call a “plant sentience”…we can hardly envision it, but no doubt it exists…what makes a plant’s life less worthy then an animals life? Who can be the objective judge?

        Now, besides the philosophical, the practical aspect – all animals (including humans, of course) act to thrive as much as they can in accordance with their own nature…that being said, humans are omnivores who actually evolved to this level of advancement thanks to the shift in diet to the “more meat on the menu” lifestyle…it’s true those times have passed, but it is also true that not ALL people can be vegans…especially not their whole life…the vegans higher health quality doesn’t stem from their plant-only menu, but from their lifestyle…and certain people have spexific dietary needs which makes it essential for them to eat meat and dairy products in order to be healthy…

        Of course, I agree rhat animal cruelty is a real issue, but it will not be solved by strict veganism, and it would cause some serious problems to force everyone into plant eating only…

        • Humans are most definitely NOT omnivores. The anatomical and physiological evidence is overwhelming.
          All people CAN be vegans. Can you explain to my why they can not? There are no specific dietary needs that require meat and dairy at all. I have no idea where you get that information from. As I said before, I am a physiologist and nutritionist and can assure you that there is no necessity for anyone to eat meat or dairy.
          I am not a vegan by the way but I will correct errors made by meat eaters or vegans.
          As for your comment about humans evolved to this level of advancement thanks to the shift in diet to the more meat on the menu lifestyle then I assume you are talking about the Expensive Tissue Hypothesis which has not only been debunked but has been retracted by its proposers.
          I agree that it is not necessarily their diet that makes vegans healthier because their lifestyle is often much better than most other people. It may be also why vegans have higher IQ’s. However, it is a fact that vegans are healthier and many studies have actually pointed to the diet as being the reason for this.
          As for vegans being selfish this is absurd seeing as vegans are trying to stop pain and suffering to ALL creatures. How can that be selfish when they are caring for other animals rather than themselves. Also by being vegan you are ‘killing’ far fewer plants than if you eat meat. Also as plants and fungi have no pain receptors or central nervous system and have never been shown to have sentience then this too is an absurd argument to make. We have to eat to live as do all animals therefore we should eat what our bodies are designed to eat…. which is not meat. I see you do not complain about a cow eating grass or an elephant eating fruit yet you make a big issue about a vegan eating plants and fungi. Bizarre logic.

  4. What about the fact it takes up to 17 times the plant material to feed an animal then it does to feed the vegan human animal directly? Cows and chickens don’t eat rocks and air, they eat copious amounts of PLANTS.

    • Animals don’t need to be treated better — they need to be treated with respect. Killing, oppressing and exploiting are not forms of showing respect.

      Please see my response to Aleksander Cerulean.

      • So you didn’t look at the links… cognitive bias in action?

        Plants have been shown to be able to recognize their siblings, feel pain (, anxiety and stress, can learn whom is a threat to them and whom is not, and are cognizant at least to some degree. While I wholeheartedly agree that animals need to be treated with respect (which is treating them better), one must also recognize and realize that all living creatures on this planet feel, and are cognizant to different degrees.

        Humankind as a whole only exists because of our past history of eating meat. You, me and everyone else would never have evolved to be able to type this on this computer if our ancestors did not eat meat. Research clearly shows that the only reason we as humans exist at all is because we ate meat…. now I understand wholly why one would choose to be vegetarian and/or vegan, as I once was myself, but to say that humans are not meant to eat meat is simply just not true. The preponderance of meat in the western diet is excessive, but some meat in the diet is natural, normal, and just the way the world works. One can treat animals with respect and dignity, as our native american ancestors did, and still eat meat. See the following articles:

        Eating Meat Made Us Human, Suggests New Skull Fossil:
        Fragments of a 1.5-million-year-old skull from a child recently found in Tanzania suggest early hominids weren’t just occasional carnivores but regular meat eaters, researchers say.

        The finding helps build the case that meat-eating helped the human lineage evolve large brains, scientists added.

        “I know this will sound awful to vegetarians, but meat made us human,” said researcher Manuel Domínguez-Rodrigo, an archaeologist at Complutense University in Madrid.

        Meat, Cooked Foods Needed for Early Human Brain
        Vegetarian, vegan and raw diets can be healthy — likely far healthier than the typical American diet. But to continue to call these diets “natural” for humans, in terms of evolution, is a bit of a stretch, according to two recent, independent studies.

        Eating meat and cooking food made us human, the studies suggest, enabling the brains of our prehuman ancestors to grow dramatically over a period of a few million years.

        Food For Thought: Meat-Based Diet Made Us Smarter
        Our earliest ancestors ate their food raw — fruit, leaves, maybe some nuts. When they ventured down onto land, they added things like underground tubers, roots and berries.

        It wasn’t a very high-calorie diet, so to get the energy you needed, you had to eat a lot and have a big gut to digest it all. But having a big gut has its drawbacks.

        “You can’t have a large brain and big guts at the same time,” explains Leslie Aiello, an anthropologist and director of the Wenner-Gren Foundation in New York City, which funds research on evolution. Digestion, she says, was the energy-hog of our primate ancestor’s body. The brain was the poor stepsister who got the leftovers. Until, that is, we discovered meat.

        “What we think is that this dietary change around 2.3 million years ago was one of the major significant factors in the evolution of our own species,” Aiello says.

        • No one is denying that plants are complex living creatures…but to claim that reacting to stimuli is the same as consciously feeling pain is incredibly assumptive, not to mention scientifically unfounded. A basic understanding of biology reveals that plants lack a nervous system and the electrical impulses that give animals sensation and consciousness. Could plants possibly have some ‘similar’ experience via chemical exchanges rather than electrical impulses? Well, I won’t rule it out — but it’s unlikely, and any supposed scientist who concludes otherwise needs some more biology lessons.

          Evolutionarily speaking meat may very well have helped our brains grow and all that jazz — true, but it wasn’t really anything inherent to meat, it was actually just an increase of calorie and nutrient consumption. That such calorie and nutrient-dense food was partially in the form of meat for our ancestors says more about anthropology than nutrition, and is quite frankly entirely irrelevant to modern times.

          • Are you saying Taonovan that we can get the same dense amount of nutrients from plants? If so, by what method? Would it be through consuming plants raw, or would they be cooked? Would we eat the plant as it is or would we condense them down into nutrient tablets and other supplements to increase the nutrient density?

            Also, can you explain why our brains have shrunk by 8% from their largest previous capacity and why they are continuing to shrink, suggesting we are currently failing to deliver the full nutrient content required to keep them large?

            • I must inform you that since the invention of the refrigerator railroad car and Mc Donald’s assembly-line fast food and factory farms, humans are eating more meat than ever before. I’m not sure where you’re getting your information from unless it’s from your own imagination.

            • Studies have shown that fish oils cause our brains to shrink not a vegan diet.
              We can ABSOLUTELY get whatever amount of nutrients we need from a non meat diet. Every national dietetic board has stated this and they are not run by vegans.

            • Studies have shown that fish oils cause our brains to shrink not a vegan diet.
              We can ABSOLUTELY get whatever amount of nutrients we need from a non meat diet. Every national dietetic board has stated this and they are not run by vegans.
              The Expensive Tissue Hypothesis which says that meat helped our brains grow and our intelligence increas has not only been debunked and discredited but has actually been withdrawn by its original proponents. It is now accepted that increase in carbs and cooked carbs helped the development and has nothing to do with meat whatsoever.
              We can absolutely get enough nutrients from plants and every major nutritional and dietetic board worldwide has stated that a vegan diet can supply EVERYTHING we need at all stages of life.

        • And the reason and type of meat homids ate and the reasons they did it might surprise you. Jane Goodall documented chimpanzees killing and consuming. But who they killed, how they did, why they did it and the manner in which it was consumed reveals so much more than the assumption that “they do it so meat is necessary” glance.

          Chimpanzees trap and kill other primates – not other species generally. Their focus is other primates due to real or perceived incursions into a troupe’s territory. When this happens, the males gang up on the “offender” (and this can certain be another chimp) and trap that animal and kill him/her.

          What comes next is a grizzly reminder that humans took this act to the next level of malevolence and domination: they eat the dead primate in front of its family/troupe as a warning and a display of dominance. The group consumption is a ritual, not a need. What that means is that Homo sapiens “gathering ’round” a carcass of a non-human animal is really just a social display of dominance, something we certainly do not “need” biologically. We have institutionalized this form of dominance through systematically domesticating other species – including human females – to “serve” a desire.

          Up until the late 1700’s, peoples of the Marquesas Islands were known to capture other humans and sell them in “meat markets” for human consumption (and they report that human, when cooked, is similar to swine flesh). They mostly always ate males, as females were assimilated. They were feared by their neighbors, and rightfully so.

          Noticing the pattern yet?

          • I often wonder if chimpanzees sometimes chase, trap, kill and eat other primates because they observed and learned the behavior from human primates engaged in the increasing “bush meat” trade. Probably difficult, if not impossible, to find a population of chimpanzees not exposed to this activity. Just a thought.

          • Chimps kill and eat other animal sources – insects for instance. Of course, insects don’t matter as much to us because they are not as easy to empathize with as say other mammals because they are less like us. Plants, being even less like us, may not “feel” in the same manner that we do. However, this does not mean they do not experience pain or suffering. They just don’t from our understanding of pain and suffering. We are different from plants. In fact, in many ways we are much less evolved. I don’t think that means we should stop eating them. I also don’t think this argument means we should never eat any animal-based products. I think the key to this is really to respect all of nature and understand our needs. When we set up an “us against them” scenario like the vegan against non-vegan, we create problems involving judgment and animosity. This is no different from religious conflicts where people fight because their beliefs clash. It is good to put forth different perspectives to encourage people to learn and grow. But they have to be willing to do so. For one group to try to force its beliefs on another group is just setting the stage for conflict.

            • That’s interesting. To you, a vegan telling a non-vegan to contemplate the pain and suffering they’re causing by their lifestyle is “forcing your beliefs on others”. But somehow when people who have been raised their entire lives and everything in their in entire culture from media to family reinforces the belief that eating animals is “normal”, meanwhile these people actually KILL for these beliefs (can’t eat animals unless they’re killed, fyi), is somehow to you not pushing your beliefs on others? And explain to me please how that is not similar to religion?

        • “Meat made us human, meat made us smarter” – I don’t even want to argue here , you provide plenty of references however what it used to be does not necessarily mean it has to stay like that forever. Correct me if I am wrong but humans are omnivores. If everyone stop eating meat would the humans as a species become less smart? I doubt it. We are 7 billion and the number is growing. It is unethically, immorally, unhealthy and most of all environmental degrading for this planet to try feeding everyone on a meat/dairy diet. Most importantly the cavemen did not have a choice, and did not reason is it ethical or moral to kill to eat. Today we have this choice and it has never been easier to stick to plant diet.

          • Very true. We have removed ourselves from the food chain by building grocery stores, being able to farm crops, living in heated/cooled houses with flushing toilets. For those of us fortunate enough to live with these luxuries, there is no excuse to make the unethical choice to eat animal products.

            Another good point you made: just because things are the way they are doesn’t mean that is the way they have to be. Imagine if people from 1,000 years ago believed in maintaining the status quo. Heck, even 500 years ago, 100 years ago or even 50 years ago! Many of us wouldn’t have the rights we are so fortunate to have if it weren’t for free-thinkers and doers who went against the grain and fought for what they knew in their heart was right.

            As a woman, I must pay respect to those people who fought for the rights I enjoy today. Oppression has always been fought for by people who fear change, who fear giving up some of their power so that others may enjoy freedom, and who fear that they may be guilty of actions which are immoral. So instead, they fight to justify their actions “the end justifies the means” (which is a fallacy) and seek to distance themselves from the injustices they are complicit in, and worse, attempt to minimize and discount the suffering they are causing by their own selfish actions. This isn’t just true of animal rights — this is true of every rights issue throughout history — every issue where one group is oppressed by another simply for being different. The oppressed are regarded as objects and reduced to a number (ear tags, “X head of cattle”, etc.), a euphemism (“beef”, “pork”, “meat”, “dairy”, rather than cow, pig, dead animal flesh, cow/goat/sheep mammary secretions etc.), and a commodity to be bought and sold.

            • This perspective too often is left out of the conversation! Life (animal or human, etc) was intended to EVOLVE. “I am not an advocate for frequent changes in laws and Constitutions. But laws and institutions must go hand in hand with the progress of the human mind. As that becomes more developed, more enlightened, as new discoveries are made, new truths discovered and manners and opinions change, with the change of circumstances, institutions must advance also to keep pace with the times. We might as well require a man to wear still the coat which fitted him when a boy as civilized society to remain ever under the regimen of their barbarous ancestors.” THOMAS JEFFERSON

          • “If everyone stop eating meat would the humans as a species become less smart?”

            true, but if we all stopped eating meat we all all would be sick and die quickly. humans cannot sustain on a vegan diet, that’s a fact.

            keep in mind that cavemen don’t have access to supplements so if they were to go vegan we won’t be here today.

            • I don’t mean any disrespect at all, sincerely… This is just plain ignorant (lacking information,not calling you stupid). Please do yourself a favor and do some research, not only focused on the articles you agree with but the opposing side, as well. Seek to understand and share your knowledge without being self-righteous (not saying you were being so here). Be as informed as you possibly can be!

        • Great points needarbell. Particularly like that you back up your claims with evidence. I find it quite entertaining that everyone thumbed you down, they hate it so much when someone posts an opinion that doesn’t reaffirm their beliefs. What exactly do they dislike about your post? That they hate the truth?

          • Did you actually read the post? Vegans kill fewer plants than non-vegans do by not filtering our nutrition through someone else’s digestive system. Furthermore, even if plants were hypothetically sentient, that wouldn’t somehow render animals non-sentient. You are guilty of using the tu quoque logical fallacy.

            I find it quite entertaining that everyone who disagrees with my post doesn’t seem to have read/understood it, they hate it so much when someone writes a post that doesn’t reaffirm their beliefs. What exactly do you dislike about my post? That you hate the truth?

        • Speaking of cognitive bias,

          It’s really nice how you only picked non-primary sources that back up the point of view you clearly hold so dear. If you were to actually look at the literature (not the pop culture mass media representations of it) you would know that the “eating meat made us human” idea has by no means been unequivocally accepted as truth at this point. As many researchers maintain it was the act of cooking that gave us the caloric density needed to increase brain size.

          So it seems your single biggest claim you’ve spent the majority of your address on, is not scientific fact, but speculation. At this point at least. Perhaps in the future the scientific community will reach a consensus on the topic but they are not there yet.

          Regarding plants responding to stimuli, this was addressed in the article. Yes, they respond to stimuli. The author isn’t arguing against that. Is that response indicative of sentience? That is the question and the current answer according to everything we know at this point, is no. Again, the entire argument you’ve proposed is based on what is currently speculation. Maybe in the future we’ll see that yes, eating a carrot is exactly the same as bludgeoning an infant cow in the head with a hammer. And then we’ll really have to think long and hard about what to do. But guess what? The answer won’t be to eat more animals. Simple math tells us that that would kill more of those thinking feeling plants, as covered in the article.

          I remember reading an article some years ago where scientists had shown they were able to magically replicate a molecule of DNA from one vial to another simply by applying some radiation to the first. Magical instant cloning. A very attractive idea indeed! But in case you haven’t noticed, it hasn’t since been included in what is considered legitimate science. “A study was done showing… ” in a popular science magazine does not equate to something being a legitimate scientific concept. There is a long line of questioning, reproducing, and validating before anything becomes accepted.

          So again, nice speculation, but based on what we currently know, animals are sentient, plants are not. You can criticize me for basing such a major personal decision on the current state of science, but for me it’s the logical thing to do. I’m not worrying about what the drywall feels when I knock down a wall, or crying for my bicycle tire when it gets a crack in it. Hey, maybe someday, but not today.

          • Thank you for your very logical and concise response. I loved this:

            “Maybe in the future we’ll see that yes, eating a carrot is exactly the same as bludgeoning an infant cow in the head with a hammer. And then we’ll really have to think long and hard about what to do. But guess what? The answer won’t be to eat more animals.”

            I looks like Nedarbeel went google-crazy and decided to copy and paste everything the internet has to offer about “plants have feelings too!” (and it conveniently fit in one tiny comment), which you have pointed out is based on speculation, not scientific fact.

        • I still cannot believe that anyone uses the 1.5 million year old skull finding as proof that we ate meat. It is true that the skull was 1.5 million years old. It is true that it was from a child. It is true that the child suffered from porotic hyperostosis. HOWEVER, any doctor or nutritionist will tell you that it is a HUGE leap from there to suggest that not eating meat caused the problem. To say that ‘suddenly stopping eating meat’ caused this problem is absurd. Many thousands of people who give up eating meat have no problem whatsoever yet we are to expected to believe that this happened? Also many other reasons exist as to why the child was malnourished. Illness, desertion from the rest of the group, stomach ulcer, genetic problem, etc etc.
          As to the meat made us smarter then I think you should look at the Expensive Tissue Hypothesis further. The proponents of the Hypothesis at no time said that eating meat made us smarter but that the increase of calories did and this was done through different ways. The proponents have now actually retracted their theory.

        • I still cannot believe that anyone uses the 1.5 million year old skull finding as proof that we ate meat. It is true that the skull was 1.5 million years old. It is true that it was from a child. It is true that the child suffered from porotic hyperostosis. HOWEVER, any doctor or nutritionist will tell you that it is a HUGE leap from there to suggest that not eating meat caused the problem. To say that ‘suddenly stopping eating meat’ caused this problem is absurd. Many thousands of people who give up eating meat have no problem whatsoever yet we are to expected to believe that this happened? Also many other reasons exist as to why the child was malnourished. Illness, desertion from the rest of the group, stomach ulcer, genetic problem, etc etc.
          As to the meat made us smarter then I think you should look at the Expensive Tissue Hypothesis further. The proponents of the Hypothesis at no time said that eating meat made us smarter but that the increase of calories did and this was done through different ways. The proponents have now actually retracted their theory.

      • I’ll go one step further: non-human animals deserve liberation from enslavement by humans, just as other humans in the past needed liberation from the humans who enslaved them. We must stop conceptualizing anything we see or encounter as “abuseable” just because we ourselves aren’t the ones being victimized. In short, if you don’t want it done to you, don’t do it to others – and that means other animals as well.

      • Hi, I was curious as to why vegans believe it’s o.k. to kill one living thing over another, and have read many comments, and it does seem as if it’s a group of crazy people talking. I’m not trying to be mean or anything, but if it was just a simple answer of I like to eat plants more that would be understandable, but it’s not, All I see is people talking about it’s o.k. cuz plants don’t feel or don’t have higher consciousness, then I found this comment, and let’s be honest. Not very long ago People thought of black people as a lower being, less than a dog, and were killed, oppressed and exploited, and definitely not shown respect. Now not trying to turn this into a race debate at all, I’m just saying that a lot of people have grown since those times, and learned, and new info has come about. Now, why is it so hard for vegans to admit that they don’t have the answers to the universe, and they don’t know everything. can you really say that plants aren’t conscious unless you have advanced the understanding of human knowledge. It’s so hard to get past a belief. Like religion people are so rooted in it they don’t wanna ever hear anything against it, and are afraid to think of the outcome. If you like killing and eating plants and it makes you feel better because it can’t move or scream, or express feeling in a way anyone can understand, then just be happy in that fact and say it as such. If tomorrow you found out that plants could feel and care, and such and it was 100% proven fact would that change you or what you eat? No because lets be honest you have to kill something to live just like people that eat meat. From what I have come across on posts like these Vegans like to make these post and defend them so that they feel better about their decision. they like to group up and try and make people feel bad about eating meat, and if you notice most of the post are usually just a bunch of like minded people agreeing with each other, if you really wanted to feel good, you’d get out there and do real science yourself, learn as much as possible, and become a more enlightened being. We as humans do have choice, and that’s a great thing. I love meat, I also love veggies. and I want both to be treated with respect, and hate cruelty. Oh and also someone said all animals were self aware, that’s incorrect if you also go by what science says at this current point in knowledge there are factors that need to be met to be self aware, and there are few animals that are self aware. So bottom line is as a human we get to decided everything for everything on the planet, and until so other species becomes smart than us we are the authority of everything, we are the most powerful, but hey 1 million years or so of evolution and that may not be the case. I’m not trying to make anyone change what they think I am just trying to make everyone think that we don’t know everything and to just be proud enough to say I eat they way I eat because it’s what I choose and not try and put a righteous degree to it.

        • I see what you’re saying, but consuming animals still kills a larger amount of plants, so if it were true that all life, plant, animal, etc experiences some sort of pain, veganism would still be the way to cause the least amount of it (as clearly stated in my post).

        • Certain bacteria, when faced with a catastrophe of sorts such as chemicals in the water that cannot be escaped, will emit a battle cry, which is chemical signaling; this results in the bacterial population to coalesce into a tight ball formation. When the chemicals hit, the bacteria on the outer layers will die but hopefully by the time that chemicals disappear from the water, the bacteria protected in the inside of the ball will be able to multiply again. Similarly in flagellated algae such as Chlamydomonas reinhardtii, they use flagella to swim on the surface of water. If there are negative environmental stimuli, they will exhibit negative chemitaxis, i.e, they will swim away from it. If they cannot escape, they will self-excise their flagella and float to the bottom of the pond; they focus on regrowing their flagella and then swim back up to the cell surface where hopefully, the negative stimuli (acidic pH, chemicals etc) have largely disappeared.

          The problem is that the definition of sentience is not the same for everyone. As you can see, even unicellular organisms like bacteria (in which flagellated members also exhibit chemotaxis) and algae avoid harmful situations. Gary Francione’s litmus test for sentience is “can they suffer?” Suffering as a word implies an awareness of the organism to harm being visited upon it. In the past, suffering/pain was traditionally thought to happen only in humans because it was thought that the awareness (consciousness) of pain required an advanced neocortex, which is also needed for consciousness. Now, prominent neuroscientists have declared that animals without advanced cortices have achieved consciousness states similar to humans, but these animals still all have nervous systems. Plants have never been shown to have a nervous system, and there is no proof that a chemical system can fully replicate the autonomic, enteric, and parasympathetic nervous systems of higher organisms.

          In short, there is no evidence that plants exhibit qualities that imply an awareness of suffering.

          If you hate cruelty then why do you still eat meat? Have you no idea about what happens to farmed animals during their lifetimes and especially during their last moments alive?

  5. May I also add that the reason fruits and other plants have spread all over the world, is because of their ingenious way of propagating by leaving seed, hence they are meant to be eaten to spread themselves and grow. (this is my weird way of looking at it anyway)

    • Exactly, Marty. Plants develop fruits that surround a seed in the hopes that a passing animal or even large insect will carry, ingest, and “drop” that seed and aid in propagation. They plant doesn’t die and isn’t harmed in the process, and it’s why they’ve evolved the fruit to begin with!

  6. Hej Vegan Rabbit. I am wondering if you have watched this documentary ” The secret life of plants” . The plants lack nervous system, can’t feel pain etc…but they have conscious or at least some sort of awareness according to the movie. Personally I find this amazing.

    • Thank you for sharing. It’s a very interesting film. The thing is, unless we plan on eating rocks or becoming breatharians, we’re going to have to eat something to survive. Our bodies are suited toward a plant-based diet. While eating a diet of fruits, vegetables, nuts, seeds and legumes, our bodies thrive. (Also, as Andrew Stone and Marty Heazelwood pointed out, certain plants, such as fruits, are supposed to be eaten, so that their seeds can travel and take root farther than if they had just fallen from the tree, which helps grow the population of that species of tree.)

      If we were lions, our bodies would thrive on meat. Heart disease wouldn’t be a leading cause of death, as excess cholesterol and saturated fats wouldn’t be a problem. It may sound strange to hear a vegan say that we can’t fault lions for eating animals. They are simply doing what comes natural to them.

      But just the same, we can’t fault humans for eating plants, as eating plants comes natural to us. We can, however, fault humans for eating animals because:

      1) Our bodies do not require meat to survive or thrive (I, and all vegans are evidence of this)

      2) We, as humans pride ourselves on our higher cognitive ability and must therefore hold ourselves to a higher standard by subjecting our choices to the influence of morality and ethics. This is why we have laws which state not to kill or be violent toward one another — because we recognize that violence is immoral. Animals have no such laws because they don’t base their choices on ethics as humans do.

      Unfortunately, no matter how hard we try, we must accept the fact that we don’t live in a perfect world. But that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t do our best to make it as close to perfect as we can. After all, just because we can’t help end violence everywhere, doesn’t mean we shouldn’t try to help end violence in our own lives to the best of our ability.

      If you believe that plants feel anything that can be described as “pain”, then your first step to eliminating your involvement in causing it is to stop eating animals because as I pointed out in this post, the animals consumed by humans eat more plants than humans do.

      • no hate, please. but this comment “It may sound strange to hear a vegan say that we can’t fault lions for eating animals. They are simply doing what comes natural to them.”. why would it be strange to hear a vegan say this? i think it is the ONLY thing possible of saying about lions. they’re carnivores, they can’t be vegans, they do not have a choice so we can’t blame the lion for eating animals. it would be so stupid to do so. and if there are vegans that blame lions for eating animals… my gosh, i am so sorry for those people, because they’re very VERY ignorant.

        other than that… great post. i agree completely and will use your arguments to refute what some stupid people say to me like: “you should be eating rocks because you’re slaughtering plants” etc.

        • I agree with you. I said that because non-vegans are often confused about certain things vegans say and do. For instance, when I tell non-vegans how much I used to love eating meat and cheese, how I ate it every day and LOVED it, they are shocked to hear those words coming out of a vegan’s mouth.

          Of course, I am telling non-vegans this because I want them to understand that despite my love of the flavor of animal products, I still made the ethical choice to go vegan because I recognized that contributing to the exploitation of animals is absolutely fundamentally wrong. I tell them this to show them that if I can do it, anyone can, and that most vegans started out exactly where they are, as meat eaters.

          This is why I have to say “it might sound strange to you”, because to many non-vegans, hearing a vegan say “we can’t fault lions for killing animals” does sound strange, simply because it’s coming from a vegan and often don’t understand the ethical and biological differences between a lion eating animals and a human eating animals.

        • Also, with lions tigers, leopards, and cats in general, they need a certain protein that can only be found in meat. Of course, this isn’t the same for humans. What many non-vegans don’t understand is the obvious fact that that carnivorous animals hunt and kill to SURVIVE, and humans hunt and kill for PLEASURE. I’m sorry I don’t have textual evidence for this; I had just read it and I’ve now forgotten the source. But I do agree with your comment!

  7. I might be viewed as a utilitarian in this aspect but my reasoning is that even *if* plants were sentient (but I don’t believe there’s enough evidence to say they are) no ideology would be taken seriously if in it’s practice it would cause human extinction. No “healthy” diet would lead to the annihilation of a species. Humans MUST eat plants in order to live. The same certainly can’t be said about animal flesh.

    A quick way to tell the difference between plants and animals? Invite some of your neighbors over for a day of trimming hedges and bushes. Ask another group to come witness a pig’s death before he’s put on the spit. My guess is you’re going to have a top-notched manicured landscape! ;)

    Great piece Vegan Rabbit – You laid out the important points just right!

      • I find it rather ironic that your link is to a web page that is supposedly about “reason, nature, free thought, liberty and respect” when your unimaginatively moronic comment is hardly a reflection on any of those things. Would you mind explaining this inconsistency for us?

        • Meat eaters are by and large unable to engage in a genuine conversation about eating animals. For if they tried, they would have no real points to make other than, “I like the taste”. It’s a valid point to be sure, but of course doesn’t hold up against the points against eating animals that a vegan would typically bring up. Such lack of ability for real discussion is the reasoning behind these comments. This is the conclusion I’ve come to at least.

          I will say that I’m still perplexed as to how to respond. I have at one point been questioned about my lack of response to a “funny” facebook comment and all I could think of was, “What type of response exactly were you hoping for?” Maybe they’re baiting and hoping to get the “angry vegan” to come out? Or they’re “trying to be funny”, but of course they have to know that as a vegan, you wouldn’t find that funny. So I guess it comes down to trying to get a laugh out of others at your expense? I’ve left asinine comments like that up on facebook posts (had considered deleting them, but didn’t) and have had a couple that ended up being deleted by the posters. I have to believe they eventually thought it through and felt embarrassed by their own actions. Since the above was probably posted by a stranger, I doubt they’ll feel embarrassed. In my case they were family and close friends. I had gone through several snarky and clever responses in my mind, but when I really reflected on it I had settled on the most honest response being “This hurt my feelings.” Of course I’m never going to post that on facebook! But it’s the truth. If I had posted something about Michael Vick, or about the military rape issue, or any number of other issues that involve the suffering of sentient beings, would they have made an analogous comment? Would my own family and friends have made fun of me? Because of course they’re not trying to start a genuine dialog about animals, it’s simply them trying to make fun of me. It unfortunately comes out sounding really self-pitying, but it’s just the conclusion I come to when I try to look at the situation objectively.

          • It’s all about image. It harkens back to grade-school… kids playing in the yard picking on the kid who is just a little different than the rest. The other kids side with the bullies so they won’t be next in line to be ostracized and seen as “un-cool”. This is why when people see a Facebook post about Michael Vick they say “He’s evil! How could he do those things to those poor dogs?!”. They know that this is the general consensus on the subject and would hate to make themselves look like a calloused ass by saying anything nice in his defense. (Carnism plays a role here as well.) So when they see someone posting something on Facebook about veganism or animal rights, they are quick to jump on that person because it is currently not the belief held by the majority than all animals are deserving of fair treatment, just like dogs, cats and humans.

            I think the deepest root of the reason why people lash out at vegans for simply speaking the truth is because the truth makes the person lashing out feel uncomfortable and ashamed. Who goes around wanting to knowingly inflict pain and suffering on other beings, other than serial killers and psychopaths? So they try to make us feel uncomfortable and ashamed so they won’t have to. It’s rule No.1 in the Bully Handbook. It states “If you hate yourself, make someone else hate themselves and you’ll be happy”. What a sad and childish way to live a life.

            Furthermore, as a feminist, I can’t ignore the obvious sexism involved in the bullying of vegans by non-vegans. Emotion, sensitivity and compassion are viewed as “feminine” traits by society. In contrast, toughness, anger and violence are viewed as “masculine” traits by society (“machismo”). Because we live in a patriarchal society, “feminine” traits are considered weak and inferior to “masculine” traits. Veganism is based on traits considered “feminine” and is therefore considered weak and inferior to meat-eating, which is considered “masculine”.

            This reminds me of one of my favorite quotes:

            “The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently.” ~ Friedrich Nietzsche

            • It is so untrue that you can’t engage meat eaters in conversation. Meat eaters are in fact more open than we give them credit for. And by the way, weren’t we all meat eaters once? I have had great conversation with meat eaters during vegan outreach. It’s all a matter of communication. If you don’t communicate properly, of course they may not listen. I need to organize a vegan communication Bootcamp lol.

              • You’re right, I should have been more specific. The meat-eaters that leave or speak comments such as the one above are incapable of having a rational discussion. Though unfortunately, in my experience, it often feels like these types of people are the majority. Of course we have to take into account that often the people that are jerks are the loudest.

                There is an automatic defensiveness that arises often when someone even realizes you’re vegan. Recently I had someone else say to someone else that “She’s vegan” (I didn’t bring it up) and had to endure an hour long rant about how idiotic veganism is. One thing he “explained” to me was how, point of fact, yes, simply being vegan is offensive. It doesn’t matter if I mention it or say anything about it. If they happen to notice what I’m *not eating*, *I* am being offensive.That was eye-opening to say the least. Of course the perhaps polite, logical meat eaters in the room wouldn’t have been able to get a word in during this rant. But thank you for the reminder of this phenomenon. It’s important not to close ourselves off and judge others, just as we wish others to do for us.

                • Here’s another approach we might try. I noticed before I became vegan that I was the one in my family most likely to tease my vegetarian nephew about his food choices. Maybe we can point out to the people making “humorous” comments that they are likely to become vegans soon, because they are obviously thinking a lot about it! (Who knows – it might even be true!!)

              • Veronique, I think Kate is referring to the meat-eating trolls who have absolutely no desire to have an intelligent conversation (family and friends can become trolls too, btw). I know you have encountered these types of people in your activism, as anyone who has done enough outreach has. Just because someone meets a person like this doesn’t mean they are not an effective communicator. I think Kate has shown herself to be very articulate.

                Of course, even trolls can be receptive (though they may not intend to be). Through discussions with vegans they can get information that makes them think, even while shouting/posting comments like “BACON!” and “CANINES!” repeatedly. But then you get those people who don’t seem to listen/read what you’re saying and are only paying attention to what they’re going to say next. :/

                • Yup, those retracted comments (along the lines of “mmmm _______” insert whatever animal was in the photo) give me a bit of hope.

                  I always feel torn: do I “stand up” for my beliefs? Am I betraying the voiceless by not responding to this? But I always struggle with how to respond without feeding that hostility. Without saying anything that could be construed as snarky and giving them a reason to be snarky back. And of course leaving me to be seen as the humorless and aggressive vegan.

                  I think my lack of response might give them the silence needed to really reflect on what I posted and how they responded, perhaps the reason they responded the way they did.

                  This thread has however reminded me of the incredible patience and thoughtfulness we must very mindfully practice when faced with these situations. If this is the person’s first time interacting with a vegan, that is an incredible responsibility on our parts to try to do it right. Whatever that means :)

                • I think you should respond, depending on the situation. If it’s someone you know personally, it might be worthwhile to discuss your concern with them. Say something informative and honest. For example, you post a picture of a piglet saying “Love animals, don’t eat them” and someone writes “mmmmm bacon!”. A good response would be something like “I wonder why you felt the inclination to make such a calloused remark on a photo of an innocent creature who has done nothing to you. You are aware that I am vegan and that this kind of remark is neither cute nor funny to me? Are your intentions malicious or did you just make an honest mistake in judgement in posting that comment? I was under the impression that we were friends. Was I wrong?”.

            • Re: the sexism issue, yes. I’ve never thought it through myself that articulately, but yes.

              Now personally, I’ll admit I’ve often thought myself, my gosh, is there anything sexier than a vegan man? A man who is “comfortable enough with his own masculinity” as the phrase goes, to truly think for himself, to truly think about and take responsibility for the consequences of his own actions, and live according to his own morals, despite overwhelming pressure from society? Lol, I’ll admit I have found myself attracted to men that I previously had no interest in, upon finding out they were vegan :)

              I have often reflected on what you say in your second paragraph. And this is what gives me hope. Everyone IS vegan! They just don’t realize it. All it takes is honesty with oneself. As you say, who really hates animals? That’s what they always say about serial killers 1) they wet the bed, and 2) they tortured animals. Of course there are all sorts of mental gymnastics people go through to decide that torturing certain animals is okay, but that’s what it takes, mental gymnastics- that frankly, can’t be defended. The overall pattern is one we’ve seen so many times in history, and I have confidence that the truth will eventually be exposed.

  8. I am vegetarian myself, soon to become vegan and by posting the link to the movie I just wanted to point out what scientists have been researching on when it comes to plants. I am far from having a guilty conscious for eating plants. It would be great if one day we all become breatharians or sun gazers but until then I am relying on a plant diet :)
    As for those who eat meat and say we are plant murderers, you have written enough of arguments in our defense.

    • Let us know when you make the leap from “v” to “V” and we’ll celebrate with you, Aleksander.

      As long as your motive is your heart for animals and not simply your heart health, you’ll experience the most marvelous feeling of joy, freedom, and even dominion (over false traits like self-justification, apathy, appetite, pride, and so on).

      In fact, you’ll wonder what took you so long!

      Believe me, you’ll have zero regrets, thanks to Tofurky and Tofutti and all the other amazing processed-food producers (not to mention the original Producer of fruits, vegetables, legumes, nuts, grains, herbs and other gifts found in the ground).

  9. Thank you for this. I’ve had a few people try to make this ridiculous argument to me. It boggles my mind.

  10. no hate, please. but this comment “It may sound strange to hear a vegan say that we can’t fault lions for eating animals. They are simply doing what comes natural to them.”. why would it be strange to hear a vegan say this? i think it is the ONLY thing possible of saying about lions. they’re carnivores, they can’t be vegans, they do not have a choice so we can’t blame the lion for eating animals. it would be so stupid to do so. and if there are vegans that blame lions for eating animals… my gosh, i am so sorry for those people, because they’re very VERY ignorant.

    other than that… great post. i agree completely and will use your arguments to refute what some stupid people say to me like: “you should be eating rocks because you’re slaughtering plants” etc.

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  12. Pingback: People For the Ethical Treatment of Plants: 4 Reasons Why the “Plant Sentience” Argument Doesn’t Work | Animals Deserve to Live·

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  14. Kara’s brilliant essay inspired my own dubbing the “plants feel pain” argument as a logical fallacy: “ad plantarum” literally “to plants”. When a meat eater supposes that eating a soybean is the same as throwing a puppy into a wood mulcher, he has automatically lost the argument. Game Over. Thanks For Playing.

    My essay exposes the lie meat eaters tell themselves and others — that they have no other choice but to eat meat. Yeah, sorry, not buying. Denial of animal sentience does not make animals less sentient, nor does it mean plants suddenly have muscle memory (they don’t) or pain receptors. I think I speak for both Kara and myself when I say I have had enough lies. People who eat animals have officially run out of rocks to hide under — you cannot defend the indefensible.

  15. Pingback: The Plant Murder vs. Animal Murder Experiment | Vegan Rabbit·

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  17. Brilliant !! One of the best articles ever read, I accept ro be “judged” by fruitarians, the others can’t. Shared and twitted, I hope everybody reads


  19. I don’t find this article convincing because of the very fact that presumption that “Plants are not truly sentient” is dubious. The remaining three points are not convincing arguments in this debate and are not central to the debate so can be dismissed.

    The way you define sentience is open to a lot of debate. And if you are worried about animals feeling pain and plants cannot can be sorted out with a simple shot of anaesthetic.

    • I think you should re-read the above post because it seems like you missed a few things. If you fully comprehended the post you wouldn’t be making some of the points you attempted to make.

      First of all, regardless of whether you believe plants are sentient on some level, vegans are responsible for fewer plant deaths than non-vegans are simply because we are eating lower on the food chain (cows eat plants — lots of plants — about 45 pounds of plants per day, whereas an average human eats around 5 pounds of food).

      Second of all, even if plants were sentient (entertaining this idea purely for conversational purposes), it still wouldn’t have any bearing on the sentience of animals. Animals are still sentient regardless of the existence or nonexistence of plant sentience.

      Short of killing ourselves and thus not contributing to any death whatsoever other than our own, the lifestyle which does the least harm to animals and plants combined is the lifestyle of a vegan.

      Lastly anesthetic doesn’t stop an animal from being slaughtered. Pain and slaughter of animals are unnecessary. I and every other vegan on this earth are living proof of this fact.

  20. Anything that grows has a conscious. Plants, fungi, moss all feel, breathe, communicate and react to their environments. this is scinetific fact. The are living organisms that are way more sophisticated than what modern science implies and has up to date.The argument that “we as humans are not suited for animal consumption” is an arguement that is not productive in selling me on become a vegan. Going to the bathroom for instance modern man uses toilets but early Human beings were meant to sit down monkey style straight onto the ground with our knees level with our chest to allow smooth er and better depositing of waste (feces). We are meant to be crapping straight on the floor or dugged holes… but I bet your not going to run and throw your toilet out now are you? Choosing to consume only plants is more of a personal choice like religion can be. thats great you feel passion about it and the suffering of the animals but if you think replacing the death and suffering of animals by transferring that energy onto plants its the wrong answer. the problem isnt necessarily the diet and eating habits. The problem is the structure of society economically, legislatively, industrially, commercially, and socially. You can make a real difference if you promoted a community garden than to hate on and make fun of meaters. instead of buying a $20+ Rib roast it would be economically effecient to purchase some zucchinis, beans, & and maybe a sweet potatoes and I’m sure you wont go over $20. I would like to see vegans use arguements like this and also be a bit more understanding when being passionate about the issue. I understand its inhumane but I also recognize the trends of industry are inhumane when the ysell us products as they cater to patrons specifically in food comsumption.Im worried about corporations gripping the vegan industry and Im sure its got its finger wrapped around already.

    • Either you didn’t read the post or your reading comprehension needs some fine tuning because I have already refuted much of what you have said in my post. You’re welcome.

  21. All I got from this; you’re trying to put down those that have different viewpoints than you and to assert your “dominance” through guilting others into believing you’re better than them or “more superior” because you choose to eat “non-sentient” beings over animals. Have you yourself personally done the research, tests, and studies to determine this as fact? No, you read something someone else wrote. Keep your opinions to yourself when they’re in regard to others, because frankly you’re only exacerbating the problem by causing others to feel lesser than you (aka hurting their feelings). We’re all equal regardless of what we eat. Respect the planet.

  22. “In conclusion, because all living creatures must eat to survive, we must choose foods which cause the least amount of harm possible.” That is the perfect definition of Ahimsa.It doesn’t necessarily equate to Non-violence but treading on the path which causes the least amount of damage or harm.

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  24. The PETP argument is simply highlighting the craziness of the vegetarian belief that animals are better then plants. You seem to take for granted that Animals have sentience and are thus better, but you have no logic to support that sentience is superior in any way. Vegetarians are simply selectively killing based one what they see as most similar to them. Disproportionately and intentionally killing plants because they seem “unequal.”
    This article also rests on the definition of murder, claiming that “non-vegans kill more plants than vegans do.” The difference between vegan and non-vegan killing of plants is intention. By not making a conscious decision about my food sources and simply fulfilling my role as a member of an ecosystem to eat whatever is easiest for me to obtain, I am not committing murder as I would as a conscious vegan. Even if more plant deaths are caused by my eating habits, vegan killing is a conscious decision to kill plants because they are not animals.Obviously, that is a hate crime and murder.

  25. You know what both sides of this debate can Just shut the hell up. Seriously, do what you wish to do. If you believe eating meat is wrong, fine I couldn’t care less. Same thing the other way. But I swear if I have to wait to eat my bacon cheeseburger with extra bacon because I know that the vegan/PETA/anti-agricultural lobbyist group giving a presentation on their crap. I will eat loudly and in the most obnoxious way possible because I don’t give a flying fadoodle. And I will deliberately offend you just to see your jimmies rustled. AND I’M GONNA LAUGH. Same thing vice versa if I were vegan of course. Just both of you stop shoving this crap down each Other’s throats. Eat what you want to eat. End of coment

  26. 1A: The fact that the sensory organs of plants are different than the sensory organs of animals is irrelevant. This is like saying the fact that some animals breathe through gills and others breathe through lungs means that those with gills don’t really breathe.

    1B: The same plant will react differently to different threats. It will release different scents to attract different predators depending on what herbivore is threatening the plant.

    1C: The ability to feel pain is irrelevant to sentience. There are rare human medical conditions that prevent the person from feeling pain. This does not mean those people are not sentient.

    2: The author has no idea what a Tu Quoque fallacy even means. However the argument is silly and nobody should use such a ridiculous argument in defense of meat-eating because meat-eating doesn’t need defending.

    3: How many plants are killed is irrelevant except to anyone making this silly argument. Few even seriously make this argument and the entire article is just one huge straw man to avoid the real arguments that exist.

    4: Restating nonsense doesn’t change the fact that it’s nonsense.

  27. Trying to say that one can live a healthy and productive life based entirely on the consumption of plants is, of course, valid because we are omnivores. We CAN eat whatever we want, but that doesn’t mean we HAVE to eat everything that’s edible. So I have no issue with Vegans or Vegetarians trying to promote their way of food intake based on the obvious unethical treatment of product producing animals and the drastic expense of maintaining that lifestyle. However, saying that because we currently mistreat animals or that animals experience fear is a reason to stop eating meat is going too far to an extreme. That’s like saying because robots are taking over people’s jobs and increasing the unemployment rate; we should disassemble all the machines and re-institute humans back to their previous jobs. As all things in the universe seeks to be balanced, companies are training people to run and fix those machines, so should we find a middle ground between reducing the heavy toll of the meat and dairy industry, but still retaining the ability to buy meat at a supermarket.

    I’ll not argue that plants have, or have as much, sentience as a cow, but saying, “They don’t feel us killing (and yes, they’re alive so taking them away from their roots is an act of killing) or consuming them so it’s better” is just not a valid argument. Nor is trying to say that there is a distinct line between what is or can be sentient and what can’t. I mean, what of fish? A fish is pretty dull intelligence wise, an extremely old creature (by evolutionary standpoint) that is run purely on instincts. Or even an insect, which is much more primitive than a fish. Does a grasshopper feel pain and fear when it loses a leg? Is crushing a spider simply because it has built a web in my house an unethical thing to do? These are just creatures on the line between mammals and plants, but no creature is more on that line than a sea sponge. If I chose to be risky and decided to slice one up and make it into stew, am I being immoral?

    The biggest fallacy so many of us keeping making is assuming there is a clear cut difference between each living thing, and that killing of one type is more justifiable than killing another. The simple fact remains: There is a food chain and we are on top. Whether you want to eat from the bottom or a few rows down, it doesn’t matter, you’re still eating a living thing. If you want to feel remorse for the life of that thing, well then you’re probably anthropomorphizing it. The only food that’s off limits to us is each other.

    • We are most definitely NOT omnivores ATMAS and a trip to the library to get out some books on comparative anatomy and physiology will show you exactly why we are not. Also we are not top of the food chain. If you look up the scientific definition of food chain you will see that humans are way down the chain (about mid way). A recent scientific survey was done on the entire animal kingdom. –
      We do not need meat at all in our diet and at present the way we produce meat for the food market is horrendous for all the animals involved. There is no need for it at all. We could save suffering and pain, help the environment, produce more food and be healthier if we ate a plant based diet.
      Paul Hughes L.C.S.P. (Assoc)

  28. The fact that we can kill and eat anything we please with almost no threat to life (with a proper weapon in hand) means we are at the top. Nothing eats us naturally, but we can be eaten if we’re dumb enough to get into that situation. Yes, we are in fact omnivores because the definition of an omnivore is a creature that can obtain energy from multiple sources and not limited to one. A lion cannot survive off a plant based diet nor can a cow survive on a meat based diet. Yet we can eat both as much as we want (ANY ill effects from consuming meat can be mitigated by eating well cooked meat and plenty of exercising. None of the supposed health risks exist when you’re not sitting on your ass. Meat is, after all, a predators meal). As long as the source is organic (has life) then we can consume and digest it. This makes us omnivores. Like I said in original post, the WAY we obtain meat is not enough of a justification to stop eating it. Nor is “We don’t HAVE to, so why do it at all?”

    The fact that we will soon be eating printed meat (which comes from animal cells, but doesn’t require killing the animal) pretty much makes all these arguments moot. It can be modified to provide all the nutrients you’ll ever need, be mass-produced for relatively tiny cost, and a perfectly sustainable food source for our inevitable venture into space for a new home. We can’t engineer cows or apple trees to survive on another world, we have to go on without it.

    My last point is this: Attacking the opposing group in the same fashion that they do will lead you nowhere. It just becomes another internet argument for people to read and laugh at. If you present solid, tested, and undeniable evidence that meat is the bane of our existence and eating plants is the only way forward. Then perhaps Vegans and Vegetarians wouldn’t have such a bad reputation. It’s the same that we ask of Christians, show us proper evidence of your god or of the acts described in that book and we will have no choice but to accept. Right now, the only evidence I see is, “I think eating meat is disgusting, so you’re a disgusting person. I’m right, you’re wrong.” Typical Typical argument.

    • Your definition of an omnivore is completely incorrect. By your definition just about every animal is an omnivore and this is quite obviously incorrect. Our physiology is that of a herbivore. Or are you saying that physiology and anatomy has nothing to do with it?
      Top of the food chain has nothing to do with killing animals with weapons (did you not read the scientific study about how it is calculated?). When you say ‘nothing eats us naturally’ then you should do a bit of research on this and look back into our history.
      As for your comment – ANY ill effects from consuming meat can be mitigated by eating well cooked meat and plenty of exercising – can you please tell me where you got this ‘fact’ from. I work in this area and unless this is a the result of a new unpublished scientific study then it it total rubbish. Sorry to be so blunt but you are just inventing this.


    Counter every point of this article, or at the very least, point 1 and I will have no problem with Vegan. It’s just bullshit to say that we don’t need meat when the article I listed has shown that some of the important/key nutrients to human’s body are found only in meat(or some plants not commonly eaten by human being like algae). Yes, of course, we can get such nutrients from other sources like pills in today’s world thanks to the advancement of science but that is not “natural”. A truly natural diet has no need of pill because pill are ultimately, human’s creation. In a world without the aid of science, a world of nature at its finest, human being cannot sustain a true vegan lifestyle and still be healthy and so, the claim that we are herbivore by nature is false as we have no NATURAL METHOD to obtain some key nutrients from a pure vegan diet. Lions can get ALL its needed nutrients from meat while cows can get ALL its needed nutrients from grass. We, human, needs some from both sides. How in the world is that herbivore?

    FYI, I am mainly arguing about the “human are herbivore by nature” claim so if please focus on that and not other points.

    • I will also add that the B12 deficiency is discussed in many vegan boards as well, thus making it something that even Vegans themselves agree are lacking in their diet. Hence, vegan diet can be unhealthy in nature. Human are lucky today that they can go vegan without any negativity in health through aids like supplement but to say that human are herbivore by nature AFTER the acknowledgement that some nutrients are missing in a pure vegan diet is simply idiotic.

      Let’s throw three humans of similar capabilities to the wild, to the womb of mother nature. All three of them are equally capable, they are very good hunters, bla bla bla and the only thing that is different between them are their diet choice. Human A go 100% vegan, human B go 100% meat-based diet while human C goes omnivore, eating a mix of veges and meats. Who would last longer in this situation[assuming no accidents]? Definitely human C. Human A and B will die out of malnutrition because we human cannot get ALL the needed nutrients from solely veges OR solely meats. Hence, we are ultimately omnivore by nature. It doesn’t matter if we don’t have teeths like lions or whatever, it doesn’t matter if our colon length are leaning toward a more herbivore type of structure, the key factor is how can we get our needed nutrients naturally in the wild, the place we once were in before we get so advanced and without our ancestors eating omnivore diets to prevent us from extinction, we won’t even be here today. Hence, human are omnivore by nature, not herbivore.

      • We can get everything we need from a plant based diet. For you to say otherwise shows that you do not understand nutrition at all. Vegans do NOT need pills or supplements. Every major nutritional board in the world will tell you that a vegan diet can supply EVERYTHING we need at all stages of our life. I can give you links to each of these boards – US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, UK etc. These are not biased vegans but nutritional boards representing the entire country concerned. We can obtain EVERYTHING we need naturally.
        As I have said before – go to the library and get out some books on comparative anatomy and physiology and you will see without any doubt that humans are not omnivores.
        Your article is basically a pro Atkins diet article. Atkins has been discredited many times and has been shown to be one of the worst possible diets to undertake for many reasons. I can go into these if you want me to. Your article is actually a blog and has no science behind it. Please do some real research on this as I have done for over 20 years in my work as a physiologist and nutritionist. Pseudoscience has no place here.

        • Here is a list of national nutritional bodies that say a vegan diet supplies everything we need.

          By the way, I am not a vegan but I am someone qualified in this area.
          Your comment about us being an omnivore because we are ABLE to eat meat would therefore include just about every animal. Cows and sheep are routinely given meat in their feed so does this make them omnivores? Of course not. Please do some more research on this and I guarantee you will find that humans are NOT omnivores.

          • I am not saying we are omnivore because we are able to eat meat. I am saying that some nutrition are really lacking in vegetables, thus making vegan diets impossible to our ancestor and so we are by nature, impossible to be herbivore. Science has helps us overcome that barrier with things like supplement and fortified food. Yes, fortified food, they sure as hell don’t exist in 100 A.D.. Our ancestors would be dead from malfunction if they were to go vegan in their era. Again, science has make it possible today. You do realize you have to really plan a diet to get everything you want from a vegan diet? If this is our nature, why in the world do we have to plan so much then? Lions just eat whatever they caught and they will get ALL the nutrients they need. Vice versa for every freaking animal on the planet. Our ancestor eats what they get, they don’t have the luxury or the knowledge to construct a proper diet and I am sure as hell they are not going to survive on a vegan diet because of the lacking of multiple nutrients by nature. Again, by nature, no food fortification, no supplement and not even the luxury to have all the vegetables to choose from. By nature, human(and animals) eat whatever they have in the area, and it’s impossible to survive on that if they are eating pure vegan.

            As I said, science has make it possible and our knowledge of nutrition these days make it happen. They make us able to eat strictly vegan without any sort of health problem. Those are not available by nature. Again, those are not available by nature. We are not herbivore by nature.

            Let’s go through the list you given:

            “Individuals who follow a plant-based diet that includes no animal products may be vulnerable to B12 deficiency and need to supplement their diet with vitamin B12 or foods fortified with vitamin B12” –

            You said no supplement yet the article given has indicated that the vegan NEEDS vitamin B12, a supplement, OR food fortified with vitamin B12. You don’t get Vitamin B12 and Fortified Food in nature, don’t you? If our ancestor isn’t eating meat, they will have a serious problem with the lack of vitamin B12 and we are probably extinct by now, thus eliminating the possibilities that we are herbivore. We need meat to survive in a true natural environment.

            “Calcium-fortified food, vitamin B12 and B2-fortified food, iron-fortified food” –

            Again, this shows that if a vegan doesn’t use supplement, they need a lot of nutritient-fortified food, which is not natural and the work of science. Thus further proving that vegan will have problem with those things if fortified food and supplement are not invented.

            Strict vegetarians and vegans are at greater risk than lacto-ovo vegetarians and nonvegetarians of developing vitamin B12 deficiency because natural food sources of vitamin B12 are limited to animal foods. –

            Oh wow, a link you showed me just said that “natural food sources of vitamin B12 are limited to animal foods. Well, I guess that means human being will not survive to this day if they are herbivores because we need vitamin B12, limited to animal foods.

            “B12 : Vitamin B12 is only found naturally in animal products, being originally derived from bacteria. Those following a vegan diet will need to ensure that they either consume foods fortified with vitamin B12 or take a vitamin B12 supplement” –

            Another site that says they have to consume fortified food or take supplement.


            As I have proven with your own links, human being cannot be herbivores because our ancestors, in an all natural Earth, have to eat more than vegetables to get all the nutrients needed and that means we, human being, are omnivore BY NATURE.

            You see, my essential point isn’t about vegan not getting all their nutrients in TODAY’S WORLD. I don’t even need 20 years of experience in that field to know that. Hell, in 50 years we probably can get all the nutrients through some sort of drink, it’s the power of science. However, your statement of “human being are herbivore” is just plain wrong because there’s no way human being(in the past. Again, IN THE PAST when science isn’t that great yet) can survive solely through a vegan diet. We have been eating like an omnivore through thousands of years to get to this time where we can not be a omnivore anymore, if someone wants to do that.

            • And you can continue to say that our anatomy and so on are not of an omnivore creature but we do need something that can’t be found naturally in plants eaten by us. If we are pure herbivores like cow and sheep, then we should be able to get everything we need from vegetables/plants in their natural state. That is not the case here. That is the main reason why I don’t think we are strictly herbivores by nature because we don’t share that trait of herbivores at all. They only need things from plants; we don’t. We can do that nowadays ONLY with clear plan and some help from science and that is not natural at all.

              • I would also add that things can change from our natural state, but that doesn’t mean we are like that by nature. For example, domestic chicken can’t fly, does that means “chicken can’t fly by nature?” Hell no. Wild chicken can fly like a boss, thus “chicken can fly, by nature”. Same goes for vegan diet, we can do them today, but are we naturally herbivore? In my view, hell no. In the wild(with no support of science), we need to eat both meats and vegetables to get the required nutrients.


                  Further reading has lead me to this site, with a research proving that human are not herbivores but omnivores by nature. Feel free to read the research. Again, I have no problem with people eating whatever they want today and human natural eating habit is not a reason to not go vegan at all, I am just having problem with inaccurate claim like we are herbivore by nature.

                • We are most definitely NOT omnivores. Our entire physiology and anatomy show that to be true. We CAN get everything our body needs without eating meat as the major nutritional bodies of every country has stated.
                  As I have said before – go to the library and get out some books on comparative anatomy and physiology written by experts in the field and you will see the OVERWHELMING evidence that we are herbivores/frugivores.
                  If you are taking vitamin B12 as evidence that we are not frugivores and cannot live without meat then you are making a huge error. Over 40% of meat eaters are B12 deficient. Modern farming practices mean that plants now no longer have B12 ON them and the food fed to farm animals produces B12 deficient meat. This is because of UN natural farming practices over the past 50 years or so. Very few vegans are actually B12 deficient oddly enough. This is partly due to supplements (from non animal sources) and also because recent studies suggest that vegans actually produce far more B12 in their bodies than non vegans. Studies are ongoing but it appears that the system of B12 production in our body is impeded when meat is eaten but works efficiently when meat is not eaten which gives even more evidence to the fact that we are not natural omnivores.
                  You need to come up with more evidence than just your own opinion and should do some real research from experts in this field.

            • Once again you are totally wrong. We have been eating meat for about 2.5 million years. Before this time dentition and fossil remains show that our diet contained no meat and we were completely herbivorous. This timespan is around 60 million years. Therefore we were perfectly able to live on a plant based diet.
              What nutrients did our ancestors lack on a herbivorous diet? I would be interested to hear your reply on that as I can assure you that if we survived for nearly 60 million years without meat then I am pretty sure that we received every vital nutrient.
              Once again I ask you to do some real research.
              You say, and I quote, ‘You don’t get Vitamin B12 and Fortified Food in nature’. Are you serious. Where on earth do you think vitamin B12 comes from? You really need to do some checking on your statements before you make them. Vitamin B12 most definitely occurs IN HUGE QUANTITIES in nature. It is in the soil and ON virtually every plant.
              It seems that your ENTIRE argument is based on vitamin B12 which shows how little you actually know about the subject. Every animal needs B12 for crucial functions in its body. How come herbivorous animals don’t take supplements? It is because B12 is readily available to them on the plants they eat. Unfortunately modern farming techniques and systems of cleaning now destroy a lot of the B12 on the plants thus leaving crops fed to humans and farm animals deficient in B12. This does not make us omnivore. It makes us herbivores who have more trouble getting B12 because of unnatural farming practices. You do not understand the basic physiology of humans.
              It is true that it is more difficult to get B12 from our diet because of the modern way of producing food but to use this as proof that we are omnivores is just plain silly.
              As I keep saying, and you keep ignoring, go and get some books out from the library about comparative anatomy and physiology then come back and try to tell me we are omnivores instead of just using one little bit of information on B12 (which is heavily skewed and only relevant for the past 50 years or so) to try and prove what you want to believe.

              Milton R. Mills, M.D. | 11/21/09
              Humans are most often described as “omnivores.” This classification is based on the “observation” that humans generally eat a wide variety of plant and animal foods. However, culture, custom and training are confounding variables when looking at human dietary practices. Thus, “observation” is not the best technique to use when trying to identify the most “natural” diet for humans. While most humans are clearly “behavioral” omnivores, the question still remains as to whether humans are anatomically suited for a diet that includes animal as well as plant foods.
              A better and more objective technique is to look at human anatomy and physiology. Mammals are anatomically and physiologically adapted to procure and consume particular kinds of diets. (It is common practice when examining fossils of extinct mammals to examine anatomical features to deduce the animal’s probable diet.) Therefore, we can look at mammalian carnivores, herbivores (plant-eaters) and omnivores to see which anatomical and physiological features are associated with each kind of diet. Then we can look at human anatomy and physiology to see in which group we belong.
              Oral Cavity
              Carnivores have a wide mouth opening in relation to their head size. This confers obvious advantages in developing the forces used in seizing, killing and dismembering prey. Facial musculature is reduced since these muscles would hinder a wide gape, and play no part in the animal’s preparation of food for swallowing. In all mammalian carnivores, the jaw joint is a simple hinge joint lying in the same plane as the teeth. This type of joint is extremely stable and acts as the pivot point for the “lever arms” formed by the upper and lower jaws. The primary muscle used for operating the jaw in carnivores is the temporalis muscle. This muscle is so massive in carnivores that it accounts for most of the bulk of the sides of the head (when you pet a dog, you are petting its temporalis muscles). The “angle” of the mandible (lower jaw) in carnivores is small. This is because the muscles (masseter and pterygoids) that attach there are of minor importance in these animals. The lower jaw of carnivores cannot move forward, and has very limited side-to-side motion. When the jaw of a carnivore closes, the blade-shaped cheek molars slide past each other to give a slicing motion that is very effective for shearing meat off bone.
              The teeth of a carnivore are discretely spaced so as not to trap stringy debris. The incisors are short, pointed and prong-like and are used for grasping and shredding. The canines are greatly elongated and dagger-like for stabbing, tearing and killing prey. The molars (carnassials) are flattened and triangular with jagged edges such that they function like serrated-edged blades. Because of the hinge-type joint, when a carnivore closes its jaw, the cheek teeth come together in a back-to-front fashion giving a smooth cutting motion like the blades on a pair of shears.
              The saliva of carnivorous animals does not contain digestive enzymes. When eating, a mammalian carnivore gorges itself rapidly and does not chew its food. Since proteolytic (protein-digesting) enzymes cannot be liberated in the mouth due to the danger of autodigestion (damaging the oral cavity), carnivores do not need to mix their food with saliva; they simply bite off huge chunks of meat and swallow them whole.
              According to evolutionary theory, the anatomical features consistent with an herbivorous diet represent a more recently derived condition than that of the carnivore. Herbivorous mammals have well-developed facial musculature, fleshy lips, a relatively small opening into the oral cavity and a thickened, muscular tongue. The lips aid in the movement of food into the mouth and, along with the facial (cheek) musculature and tongue, assist in the chewing of food. In herbivores, the jaw joint has moved to position above the plane of the teeth. Although this type of joint is less stable than the hinge-type joint of the carnivore, it is much more mobile and allows the complex jaw motions needed when chewing plant foods. Additionally, this type of jaw joint allows the upper and lower cheek teeth to come together along the length of the jaw more or less at once when the mouth is closed in order to form grinding platforms. (This type of joint is so important to a plant-eating animal, that it is believed to have evolved at least 15 different times in various plant-eating mammalian species.) The angle of the mandible has expanded to provide a broad area of attachment for the well-developed masseter and pterygoid muscles (these are the major muscles of chewing in plant-eating animals). The temporalis muscle is small and of minor importance. The masseter and pterygoid muscles hold the mandible in a sling-like arrangement and swing the jaw from side-to-side. Accordingly, the lower jaw of plant-eating mammals has a pronounced sideways motion when eating. This lateral movement is necessary for the grinding motion of chewing.
              The dentition of herbivores is quite varied depending on the kind of vegetation a particular species is adapted to eat. Although these animals differ in the types and numbers of teeth they posses, the various kinds of teeth when present, share common structural features. The incisors are broad, flattened and spade-like. Canines may be small as in horses, prominent as in hippos, pigs and some primates (these are thought to be used for defense) or absent altogether. The molars, in general, are squared and flattened on top to provide a grinding surface. The molars cannot vertically slide past one another in a shearing/slicing motion, but they do horizontally slide across one another to crush and grind. The surface features of the molars vary depending on the type of plant material the animal eats. The teeth of herbivorous animals are closely grouped so that the incisors form an efficient cropping/biting mechanism, and the upper and lower molars form extended platforms for crushing and grinding. The “walled-in” oral cavity has a lot of potential space that is realized during eating.
              These animals carefully and methodically chew their food, pushing the food back and forth into the grinding teeth with the tongue and cheek muscles. This thorough process is necessary to mechanically disrupt plant cell walls in order to release the digestible intracellular contents and ensure thorough mixing of this material with their saliva. This is important because the saliva of plant-eating mammals often contains carbohydrate-digesting enzymes which begin breaking down food molecules while the food is still in the mouth.
              Stomach and Small Intestine
              Striking differences between carnivores and herbivores are seen in these organs. Carnivores have a capacious simple (single-chambered) stomach. The stomach volume of a carnivore represents 60-70% of the total capacity of the digestive system. Because meat is relatively easily digested, their small intestines (where absorption of food molecules takes place) are short&151;about three to five or six times the body length. Since these animals average a kill only about once a week, a large stomach volume is advantageous because it allows the animals to quickly gorge themselves when eating, taking in as much meat as possible at one time which can then be digested later while resting. Additionally, the ability of the carnivore stomach to secrete hydrochloric acid is exceptional. Carnivores are able to keep their gastric pH down around 1-2 even with food present. This is necessary to facilitate protein breakdown and to kill the abundant dangerous bacteria often found in decaying flesh foods.
              Because of the relative difficulty with which various kinds of plant foods are broken down (due to large amounts of indigestible fibers), herbivores have significantly longer and in some cases, far more elaborate guts than carnivores. Herbivorous animals that consume plants containing a high proportion of cellulose must “ferment” (digest by bacterial enzyme action) their food to obtain the nutrient value. They are classified as either “ruminants” (foregut fermenters) or hindgut fermenters. The ruminants are the plant-eating animals with the celebrated multiple-chambered stomachs. Herbivorous animals that eat a diet of relatively soft vegetation do not need a multiple-chambered stomach. They typically have a simple stomach, and a long small intestine. These animals ferment the difficult-to-digest fibrous portions of their diets in their hindguts (colons). Many of these herbivores increase the sophistication and efficiency of their GI tracts by including carbohydrate-digesting enzymes in their saliva. A multiple-stomach fermentation process in an animal which consumed a diet of soft, pulpy vegetation would be energetically wasteful. Nutrients and calories would be consumed by the fermenting bacteria and protozoa before reaching the small intestine for absorption. The small intestine of plant-eating animals tends to be very long (greater than 10 times body length) to allow adequate time and space for absorption of the nutrients.
              The large intestine (colon) of carnivores is simple and very short, as its only purposes are to absorb salt and water. It is approximately the same diameter as the small intestine and, consequently, has a limited capacity to function as a reservoir. The colon is short and non-pouched. The muscle is distributed throughout the wall, giving the colon a smooth cylindrical appearance. Although a bacterial population is present in the colon of carnivores, its activities are essentially putrefactive.
              In herbivorous animals, the large intestine tends to be a highly specialized organ involved in water and electrolyte absorption, vitamin production and absorption, and/or fermentation of fibrous plant materials. The colons of herbivores are usually wider than their small intestine and are relatively long. In some plant-eating mammals, the colon has a pouched appearance due to the arrangement of the muscle fibers in the intestinal wall. Additionally, in some herbivores the cecum (the first section of the colon) is quite large and serves as the primary or accessory fermentation site.
              What About Omnivores?
              One would expect an omnivore to show anatomical features which equip it to eat both animal and plant foods. According to evolutionary theory, carnivore gut structure is more primitive than herbivorous adaptations. Thus, an omnivore might be expected to be a carnivore which shows some gastrointestinal tract adaptations to an herbivorous diet.
              This is exactly the situation we find in the Bear, Raccoon and certain members of the Canine families. (This discussion will be limited to bears because they are, in general, representative of the anatomical omnivores.) Bears are classified as carnivores but are classic anatomical omnivores. Although they eat some animal foods, bears are primarily herbivorous with 70-80% of their diet comprised of plant foods. (The one exception is the Polar bear which lives in the frozen, vegetation poor arctic and feeds primarily on seal blubber.) Bears cannot digest fibrous vegetation well, and therefore, are highly selective feeders. Their diet is dominated by primarily succulent lent herbage, tubers and berries. Many scientists believe the reason bears hibernate is because their chief food (succulent vegetation) not available in the cold northern winters. (Interestingly, Polar bears hibernate during the summer months when seals are unavailable.)
              In general, bears exhibit anatomical features consistent with a carnivorous diet. The jaw joint of bears is in the same plane as the molar teeth. The temporalis muscle is massive, and the angle of the mandible is small corresponding to the limited role the pterygoid and masseter muscles play in operating the jaw. The small intestine is short (less than five times body length) like that of the pure carnivores, and the colon is simple, smooth and short. The most prominent adaptation to an herbivorous diet in bears (and other “anatomical” omnivores) is the modification of their dentition. Bears retain the peg-like incisors, large canines and shearing premolars of a carnivore; but the molars have become squared with rounded cusps for crushing and grinding. Bears have not, however, adopted the flattened, blunt nails seen in most herbivores and retain the elongated, pointed claws of a carnivore.
              An animal which captures, kills and eats prey must have the physical equipment which makes predation practical and efficient. Since bears include significant amounts of meat in their diet, they must retain the anatomical features that permit them to capture and kill prey animals. Hence, bears have a jaw structure, musculature and dentition which enable them to develop and apply the forces necessary to kill and dismember prey even though the majority of their diet is comprised of plant foods. Although an herbivore-style jaw joint (above the plane of the teeth) is a far more efficient joint for crushing and grinding vegetation and would potentially allow bears to exploit a wider range of plant foods in their diet, it is a much weaker joint than the hinge-style carnivore joint. The herbivore-style jaw joint is relatively easily dislocated and would not hold up well under the stresses of subduing struggling prey and/or crushing bones (nor would it allow the wide gape carnivores need). In the wild, an animal with a dislocated jaw would either soon starve to death or be eaten by something else and would, therefore, be selected against. A given species cannot adopt the weaker but more mobile and efficient herbivore-style joint until it has committed to an essentially plant-food diet test it risk jaw dislocation, death and ultimately, extinction.
              What About Me?
              The human gastrointestinal tract features the anatomical modifications consistent with an herbivorous diet. Humans have muscular lips and a small opening into the oral cavity. Many of the so-called “muscles of expression” are actually the muscles used in chewing. The muscular and agile tongue essential for eating, has adapted to use in speech and other things. The mandibular joint is flattened by a cartilaginous plate and is located well above the plane of the teeth. The temporalis muscle is reduced. The characteristic “square jaw” of adult males reflects the expanded angular process of the mandible and the enlarged masseter/pterygoid muscle group. The human mandible can move forward to engage the incisors, and side-to-side to crush and grind.
              Human teeth are also similar to those found in other herbivores with the exception of the canines (the canines of some of the apes are elongated and are thought to be used for display and/or defense). Our teeth are rather large and usually abut against one another. The incisors are flat and spade-like, useful for peeling, snipping and biting relatively soft materials. The canines are neither serrated nor conical, but are flattened, blunt and small and function Like incisors. The premolars and molars are squarish, flattened and nodular, and used for crushing, grinding and pulping noncoarse foods.
              Human saliva contains the carbohydrate-digesting enzyme, salivary amylase. This enzyme is responsible for the majority of starch digestion. The esophagus is narrow and suited to small, soft balls of thoroughly chewed food. Eating quickly, attempting to swallow a large amount of food or swallowing fibrous and/or poorly chewed food (meat is the most frequent culprit) often results in choking in humans.
              Man’s stomach is single-chambered, but only moderately acidic. (Clinically, a person presenting with a gastric pH less than 4-5 when there is food in the stomach is cause for concern.) The stomach volume represents about 21-27% of the total volume of the human GI tract. The stomach serves as a mixing and storage chamber, mixing and liquefying ingested foodstuffs and regulating their entry into the small intestine. The human small intestine is long, averaging from 10 to 11 times the body length. (Our small intestine averages 22 to 30 feet in length. Human body size is measured from the top of the head to end of the spine and averages between two to three feet in length in normal-sized individuals.)
              The human colon demonstrates the pouched structure peculiar to herbivores. The distensible large intestine is larger in cross-section than the small intestine, and is relatively long. Man’s colon is responsible for water and electrolyte absorption and vitamin production and absorption. There is also extensive bacterial fermentation of fibrous plant materials, with the production and absorption of significant amounts of food energy (volatile short-chain fatty acids) depending upon the fiber content of the diet. The extent to which the fermentation and absorption of metabolites takes place in the human colon has only recently begun to be investigated.
              In conclusion, we see that human beings have the gastrointestinal tract structure of a “committed” herbivore. Humankind does not show the mixed structural features one expects and finds in anatomical omnivores such as bears and raccoons. Thus, from comparing the gastrointestinal tract of humans to that of carnivores, herbivores and omnivores we must conclude that humankind’s GI tract is designed for a purely plant-food diet.
              Facial Muscles
              Carnivore Reduced to allow wide mouth gape
              Herbivore Well-developed
              Omnivore Reduced
              Human Well-developed

              Jaw Type
              Carnivore Angle not expanded
              Herbivore Expanded angle
              Omnivore Angle not expanded
              Human Expanded angle

              Jaw Joint Location
              Carnivore On same plane as molar teeth
              Herbivore Above the plane of the molars
              Omnivore On same plane as molar teeth
              Human Above the plane of the molars

              Jaw Motion
              Carnivore Shearing; minimal side-to-side motion
              Herbivore No shear; good side-to-side, front-to-back
              Omnivore Shearing; minimal side-to-side
              Human No shear; good side-to-side, front-to-back

              Major Jaw Muscles
              Carnivore Temporalis
              Herbivore Masseter and pterygoids
              Omnivore Temporalis
              Human Masseter and pterygoids

              Mouth Opening vs. Head Size
              Carnivore Large
              Herbivore Small
              Omnivore Large
              Human Small

              Teeth (Incisors)
              Carnivore Short and pointed
              Herbivore Broad, flattened and spade shaped
              Omnivore Short and pointed
              Human Broad, flattened and spade shaped

              Teeth (Canines)
              Carnivore Long, sharp and curved
              Herbivore Dull and short or long (for defense), or none
              Omnivore Long, sharp and curved
              Human Short and blunted

              Teeth (Molars)
              Carnivore Sharp, jagged and blade shaped
              Herbivore Flattened with cusps vs complex surface
              Omnivore Sharp blades and/or flattened
              Human Flattened with nodular cusps

              Carnivore None; swallows food whole
              Herbivore Extensive chewing necessary
              Omnivore Swallows food whole and/or simple crushing
              Human Extensive chewing necessary

              Carnivore No digestive enzymes
              Herbivore Carbohydrate digesting enzymes
              Omnivore No digestive enzymes
              Human Carbohydrate digesting enzymes

              Stomach Type
              Carnivore Simple
              Herbivore Simple or multiple chambers
              Omnivore Simple
              Human Simple

              Stomach Acidity
              Carnivore Less than or equal to pH 1 with food in stomach
              Herbivore pH 4 to 5 with food in stomach
              Omnivore Less than or equal to pH 1 with food in stomach
              Human pH 4 to 5 with food in stomach

              Stomach Capacity
              Carnivore 60% to 70% of total volume of digestive tract
              Herbivore Less than 30% of total volume of digestive tract
              Omnivore 60% to 70% of total volume of digestive tract
              Human 21% to 27% of total volume of digestive tract

              Length of Small Intestine
              Carnivore 3 to 6 times body length
              Herbivore 10 to more than 12 times body length
              Omnivore 4 to 6 times body length
              Human 10 to 11 times body length

              Carnivore Simple, short and smooth
              Herbivore Long, complex; may be sacculated
              Omnivore Simple, short and smooth
              Human Long, sacculated

              Carnivore Can detoxify vitamin A
              Herbivore Cannot detoxify vitamin A
              Omnivore Can detoxify vitamin A
              Human Cannot detoxify vitamin A

              Carnivore Extremely concentrated urine
              Herbivore Moderately concentrated urine
              Omnivore Extremely concentrated urine
              Human Moderately concentrated urine

              Carnivore Sharp claws
              Herbivore Flattened nails or blunt hooves
              Omnivore Sharp claws
              Human Flattened nails

  30. Clearly if humans were meant to eat meat we wouldn’t have so many crucial ingestive/digestive similarities with animals that are herbivores.

    Lets take a deeper look at the anatomical and physiological features of humans, and animals. Starting with the teeth, omnivores and carnivores teeth are spaced, and all are sharply pointed. Omnivores teeth are adapted to tearing through fur…, bones, muscles, organs, and flesh. Vision of omnivores and carnivores is mainly color-less. Herbivores and frugivores can see the full scale of color. Mammary glands of omnivores and carnivores have multiple teats for litters. Herbivores and frugivores only have one baby, and very rarely multiples (without med’s). The placenta of omnivores and carnivores are zonary shape, and herbivores and frugivores are discoid-shape. Humans spend about 8 hours sleeping or less, same as herbivores and frugivores. Omnivores and carnivores spend about 18-20 hours per day. Herbivores don’t have claws, and neither does frugivores. Omnivores and carnivores have tails, claws, and paws. Omnivores have very tiny salivary glands, whereas humans have well-developed salivary glands. Humans have alkaline saliva ranging about pH of 7.4. Herbivores is 7.0-7.5 pH. Omnivores and carnivores have an acidic pH. Omnivores and carnivores stomach pH is 1-2(and can be 1,000x stronger than humans). Humans stomach pH is 4-5. Herbivores is 4-5. Carnivores and omnivores secrete uricase to metabolize uric acid in flesh. Herbivores do not, and frugivores do not. Humans do not secrete uricase. Humans, herbivores, and frugivores all have salivary digestive enzymes and very little lysosomes in the mouth. Carnivores and omnivores do not have salivary digestive enzymes and they do have a large amount of lysosomes in the mouth.
    This is where humans differ from herbivores and are more related to frugivores. Some herbivores have 3-4 stomach compartments, with a GI tract 20 times longer than the body length. Frugivores have a GI tract about 12 times longer than body length. Omnivores and carnivores have a GI tract 3 times longer. Frugivores have a convoluted colon. Herbivores have an intestinal canal both smooth and convoluted. Omnivores and carnivores have a smooth colon, short. Herbivores and frugivores can convert ALA–> DHA & EPA. Men convert mainly in their reproductive organs and brain tissue. Women convert in all of their tissues. Any studies stating otherwise failed to sample specific tissues such as the reproductive tissue and brain tissue. Herbivores and frugivores also can convert SCFA’s to LCFA’s. However, omnivores and carnivores are not capable of doing this. Herbivores live mainly on grass and plants, humans live on vegetables and fruits. Actually, we aren’t even capable of digesting meat but at a rate of 40%. Meaning, 60% is wasted, to sit in our GI tracts for 3 days. Carnivores and omnivores will defecate within several hours after consuming an animal. Humans it takes on average 3 days. This is why gastrointestinal cancers, and colon cancers occur! Herbivores and frugivores brain and B12 are fueled by glycogen (stored glucose). Carnivores and omnivores brains are fueled by fats and proteins.

    If you were to compare humans to a certain species, I would say they are most similar to frugivores. Besides, after every single meal, what do you crave the most? Sweets, right? Well, fruit is the most sweetest food naturally grown, thus, in the wild we would be munching on fruit.

  31. Science Verifies That Humans’ Ancestors Were Frugivores

    The human digestive system has been adapted to a diet of fruits and vegetables for more than 60 million years of development. A few thousand years of aberrant eating will not change our dietary requirements for optimum health.

  32. file:///D:/e%20drive%20copy/SaveData%20(E)/Veggie%20facts/veggie%20stuff/Evolutionary%20Nutrition%20%20The%20Scientific%20and%20Theoretical%20Validation%20of%20Veganism%20-%20N.%20Atiba%20Amen-Ra%20-%20Google%20Livros.htm

  33. 1. You keep ask me to do things like going to the library and bla bla bla, yet you don’t seem to do them yourselves. You ask me to read things from experts, I did, and I have posted some links which you have no reply from. Which means either you don’t read it because you think you are so right and whatever I posted are crap or you can’t make any form of come back after reading it.

    2. I do read your stuff, and I sure as hell posted the B12 argument ALL FROM THE LINKS YOU GAVE ME. Basically you are slapping yourself in the face because you posted links that you said are proof that we can get all the nutrients we need from vegetables yet those sites YOU POSTED YOUSELF have shown that vegans are having difficulty on some nutrients. “Very few vegans are actually B12 deficient”, yeah right, do you actually read the links you gave me and/or the links I gave you? Most, if not all of them, stated that vegans are more likely to be B12 deficient. One site evens state that 92% of vegans are B12 deficient. Yet, you said “very few vegans are actually B12 deficient” with no links or whatever. How is your own statement going to be believable against like 7-8 links combined from me and YOU(yes, you) that shows otherwise? I even pulled all the B12 segment of all the links you showed me above so you can see them clearly without going to the sites you showed me.

    3. And of course, I can based my points on B12(but not solely either) as even vegans themselves are discussing about it among themselves in forum and various vegan boards. You know a point is strong when even vegans themselves have problem coming up with counter points.

    4. I do read expert’s research and have posted various links. You ability to “ignore what you don’t want to read” and then tell me that I am basing everything on my personal opinion is splendid to say the least. I have posted replies on your link, yet the only link you have said something about is the pro Atkin diet. Aside from that you give me no feedback and continue to keep wrap everything around the anatomy like it’s the Holy Grail of statement. How am I going to believe you when you don’t reply on my thing?

    5. BTW, I have been to the local library and all the books they have said we are omnivores leaning toward the herbivores side but not (100%) herbivores by design. Now what? You are going to say the library of my place sucks(To be fair, they are; reading isn’t a huge deal in my country)?

    6. Now, I will reply on your links once again because I am unlike you:

    No offense but I don’t really trust that Scribd link, it’s as “made up” as a blog to me.

    As for The Comparative Anatomy of Eating, well, I have found some papers on us being omnivores and some like yours, states that we are frugivores. So, no conclusion. Plenty of links have state that human are not completely herbivores.

    Okay, assumign your statements on our ancestors have been eating fruits for 60 millions years are right, that still doesn’t take away from the fact that we have been eating meats for 2.5 millions years and are still a living species on Earth. I am pretty sure pure herbivores like cows are unlikely to survive if they eat things they ratio we do. One trait of omnivore is their adaptability to their environment and we sure are. Cows would probably die in desert because of their lack of flexibility but humans survived in desert or just any other environment because of such flexibilities. Omnivores always prefer one class of food, the one they are leaning toward, like squirrels always take nuts and seeds but they are eating eggs and nestlings when the environment has made them. If we are strictly herbivores, then why are we suddenly going for meats then? You don’t see cows suddenly go “Ah, I am going to eat fruit” one day. They eat grass throughout their entire existence as a species. Omnivores like human, bears and squirrels are much more flexible. Going from the “they eat whatever they can find but generally prefer one types of food”, human are omnivores.

    7. There are also argument that the species closest to us are apes(no shit) and people keep saying that apes are herbivores. I beg to defer: am sure as hell this is an expert’s research). Going back to the list of content, you will find “Timeline of dietary shifts in the human line of evolution”. Granted, it really proves you are right about us being herbivorous(but before that, we are insectivores and that’s on the carnivore side) in the veyr early stage, it also shows that our diets are constantly changing and we have been eating omnivorous diet since we are “true human”. Aside from that, the timeline also shows that we are eating various things in various time, probably because we are forced to. This really shows that we are omnivore by nature because we roll with the environment. You won’t see this type of timeline on a pure herbivores, they are going to eat the same kind of food ALL THE TIME, that’s what make them herbivores.

    • Speaking of frugivore, are there any readings on people in the current days following a fruit-based diet? I am curious to see how that work in today because to me, it just doesn’t work easily in today’s world?

      • I actually did go to the library on many occasions and got out a lot of books on comparative anatomy and physiology and I know that our bodies are nowhere near the bodies of an omnivore. Can you discredit any of the information I gave regarding our physiology compared to that of an omnivore? I know you cannot.
        Apes are in fact vegetarians. If you look at what they actually eat you will see that a tiny percentage is meat and often that is done not for nutrition but for territorial purposes and it is only the males that do it. If you refer to the world’s foremost expert on apes, Jane Goodall, you will see that they are in fact vegetarian.
        Meat eaters are actually more likely to have a B12 deficiency than vegans

        You have conveniently ignored the fact that the reason both meat eaters and vegans/vegetarians may have problems with B12 is not because of our natural diet being lacking but because of modern farming techniques. Please take the whole story rather than trying to nit pick with something that is patently incorrect.
        Yes, we have been eating meat for 2.5 million years but our physiology and anatomy have not changed. It is still that of a herbivore/frugivore. Can you show me how our anatomy is that of an omnivore? I have gone into depth as to our physiological and anatomical traits that show we are not omnivores. Please show me a list of reasons why our bodies are omnivorous.
        As for the links I posted saying that we have trouble getting all the nutrients we need from a plant based diet. I think you have not read them. Every national nutritional board has stated that we can get EVERYTHING we need at ALL stages of life from a plant based diet. We cannot get this from a total meat diet. This in itself shows that we are not omnivores as an omnivore can live completely on either plants or meat. We cannot do that. The races with the highest intake of meat have also the highest incidences of illnesses and diseases.
        With regards your library I am certain that you did not look for books on comparative anatomy and physiology as every single one of them show that we are not omnivores. I would be interested in the titles of the books you actually did look at. I have seen scores of books on the subject and not one single book, dealing with COMPARATIVE anatomy and physiology, says that we are omnivores

        • 1. I have make my replies numerical as to make them easier to reply to(so you can give reply to each argument) yet you have not really replied much of them. You keep ask me if I can discredit your information, yet you doesn’t attempt to discredit my information either, thus making it a tie at best. All you keep saying is anatomy and physiology, which granted, is a strong argument, but you have no said anything new. It will be more convincible if you can discredit me instantly.

          2. Speaking of discredit, I have posted links of expert’s research to counter your argument that your apes argument on the previous post’s point 7. You will have to do more than saying “apes are in fact vegetarians” to counter that, I would like to see some expert’s research on your side, like Jane Goodall’s research paper for example. Until then I can only take your words for it, which in itself isn’t really convincing since it’s the internet.

          3. I have no doubt that meat eaters have B12 deficiency as well. I never say meat eater have perfect record of no B12 deficiency at all. Yet, all the links you and me given so far has showed that vegeterians nowadays have more problem with B12 deficiency. Backed up by so many statistic, it’s hard to see otherwise.

          4. I am still interested if you could find anything about a pure fruit diet in today’s world.

        • 5. As for the library point, whether you believe or not, I live in a rather rural state of a developing country and the traffic here is a problem especially when you don’t have a car, which I don’t have. So as much as I would like to go to the library again, it’s hard to do so because of the distance and the lack of public traffic that go there from where I live.

  34. Humans are omnivores as a product of evolution. The ability to eat plants or animals is one of the primary factors that has allowed us to survive for millions of years. While we have a choice of whether we wish to eat plants as opposed to animals, a portion of the population may not actually be able to enforce this choice without a survival predicament. This is because the human consciousness (as incredibly complex as it is) is theorized to be innately based off of past generations when it comes to survival.
    I love your arguments above and i think its fantastic that you’ve managed to rationalize your views with evidence and logic! but ALWAYS remember that different people think and see the world in very different ways, making not every argument one sided.

    • Unfortunately our evolution has not changed our bodies in ANY significant way from herbivores/frugivores towards omnivores. In fact, if anything, evolution has actually made us herbivorous and not the other way round. This is easily shown by looking at our anatomy and physiology. If you look through the above links in the thread you will see that we are without doubt NATURAL herbivores. The ability to eat meat does not make an animal an omnivore. If it did then just about every single animal would be classed as an omnivore. This is a mistake that is frequently made when calling humans omnivores.

  35. Pingback: I Hope This Makes You Uncomfortable | VeganRabbit·

  36. Unfortunately, as scientific proof about plants develops during this recent important round of testing they are doing since the 60’s and 70’s, the cruelty-free eating argument is falling apart. Now we have even more confirmations about plants feeling pain, knowing that we eat them, communicating to other plants when they are in danger, and having a complex underground internet like web to connect each other. I am sure that there is more about to come, and this is truly a fascinating, mind opening, consciousness widening discovery. It is revolutionary, indeed.

    We have to be in peace with the truth: eating plants is as cruel as eating animals. We have to do as the Native Americans do: to bless the living being –animal or plant- to ask for forgiveness, and to be grateful. We have to tone down our selves, being humble as we realize and reflect upon the limitation we have of not being able to survive without eating another living being.

    The only cruelty-free way to survive that we know at this moment of history is brethariasnism. There is another second way, and it is man-made: the new 3-D printed food, taken directly from nutritious matter from the soil – the mineral kingdom. Still, we are assuming that Earth is inert – but if it is true that Earth – the mineral kingdom – is alive, as few scientist are arguing now, the 3-D printed food will also be cruelty based.

    The argument that by not eating meat we are sponsoring excessive breeding of animals, and the animal industry, it is as saying that by eating plants we are not sponsoring the industry of plant based food. Simply not true.
    The only way we do not sponsor excessiveness, is by eating local and organic from family based businesses, or doing it yourself. The same way that eating local and organic from family based agricultural small business, can be applied to the family based meat and eggs small businesses that sell organic pasture fed animals. Just the same: Both grow and kill with the least possible cruelty.

    The ONLY problems vegans have to compromise with, from now on, is simply the ego-based argument. That is all. This is what it is all about and it is being always about. This is not about telling vegans they can eat meat – please don’t. This is about telling vegans that the ego-based/ superiority-based arguments are over. The 40+ years of bullying and attacks to omnivores are over. The pamphletarian part, the doctrine part is over. All that ego-based part is over.
    Science is documenting and publishing more testing that show that eating plants is as cruel as eating animals. It is that simple. Vegans have no other problem than this. Just accepting the mistake – not by practicing veganism, but the being intolerant and claiming superiority part. It is only the ego-based part that was wrong.

    The NEW higher consciousness eating habit is called: TOLERANCE TO DIFFERENCES, BEING HUMBLE AND GRATEFUL.
    (just as tolerant we must be with race, gender, etc)

    Vegans and omnivores can together now fight food industry, and corporatocracy, which are the real threat to all living things and Mother Earth.

    • If you believe that that eating plants is as cruel as eating animals, you should go fruitarian or at the very least, vegan. As I stated in my post (which you clearly didn’t bother to read), vegans don’t filter nutrition through someone else’s digestive system. Vegans consume and “murder” fewer plants than non-vegans because we are not contributing to an industry which feeds livestock animals far greater amounts of plants than vegans could ever consume directly.

  37. ‘Unfortunately, as scientific proof about plants develops during this recent important round of testing they are doing since the 60’s and 70’s, the cruelty-free eating argument is falling apart. ‘
    Really????? I work in this field and I have seen no new evidence that shows this whatsoever.

    Certain bacteria, when faced with a catastrophe of sorts such as chemicals in the water that cannot be escaped, will emit a battle cry, which is chemical signaling; this results in the bacterial population to coalesce into a tight ball formation. When the chemicals hit, the bacteria on the outer layers will die but hopefully by the time that chemicals disappear from the water, the bacteria protected in the inside of the ball will be able to multiply again. Similarly in flagellated algae such as Chlamydomonas reinhardtii, they use flagella to swim on the surface of water. If there are negative environmental stimuli, they will exhibit negative chemitaxis, i.e, they will swim away from it. If they cannot escape, they will self-excise their flagella and float to the bottom of the pond; they focus on regrowing their flagella and then swim back up to the cell surface where hopefully, the negative stimuli (acidic pH, chemicals etc) have largely disappeared.

    The problem is that the definition of sentience is not the same for everyone. As you can see, even unicellular organisms like bacteria (in which flagellated members also exhibit chemotaxis) and algae avoid harmful situations. Gary Francione’s litmus test for sentience is “can they suffer?” Suffering as a word implies an awareness of the organism to harm being visited upon it. In the past, suffering/pain was traditionally thought to happen only in humans because it was thought that the awareness (consciousness) of pain required an advanced neocortex, which is also needed for consciousness. Now, prominent neuroscientists have declared that animals without advanced cortices have achieved consciousness states similar to humans, but these animals still all have nervous systems. Plants have never been shown to have a nervous system, and there is no proof that a chemical system can fully replicate the autonomic, enteric, and parasympathetic nervous systems of higher organisms.

    Even if plants do feel pain then being vegan is helping more plants to live, helping the environment, saving the lives and the torture of billions of animals. Not difficult to grasp that really is it? Also, as we MUST eat to live then we should eat what is natural and what our bodies are designed for and that is most definitely NOT meat.
    How on earth do you imagine that vegans can work with omnivores with regards food? It will never happen. The two are diametrically opposed.

    • “How on earth do you imagine that vegans can work with omnivores with regards food? It will never happen. The two are diametrically opposed. ”

      The same way Whites, Blacks, Asians and Latinos work together against racism.

      The same way Muslims, Christians, Buddhists, Hindus, Shamans, work together for peace, understanding, and spiritual solutions to the world.

      The same way heterosexuals and the LGBT community work together for gender equality.

      The same way men and feminists work together to stop abuse on women and girls.

      The same way I see in my local organic farmers’ market people of the stand of all plants products and people of the stands of organic meat products sharing together the same space in peace, tolerance, and harmony.

      Why not?
      Why separation?
      Why fundamentalism?
      Why going backwards, when the world is pushing forward in consciousness?
      Why exclusion, right when we are entering into an era when people of the world are finally realizing we are all one?
      Why not choosing humbleness and realizing we kill living beings to live, embrace the limitation we have, and work together to stop the corporate food industry – by making food with the least possible cruelty for the living thing we are eating?

      • I will try to make it as simple as possible. Vegans are completely against killing of animals especially for food. Omnivores are pro killing of animals for food. The two cannot mix. A vegan cannot support an omnivore to try and stop cruelty to animals when the animals are still being killed for food. Pretty simple to me but as an omnivore you are never going to understand that are you?
        Your analogies are not even close to the example I gave. Blacks whites etc have a common ground against racism. Different religions have a common ground towards peace. There is NO common ground with omnivores and vegans. One wants to kill and eat animals and the other wants to stop eating and killing animals.
        You really do not understand this do you?

        • Thank you so much for your intelligent and cohesive explanations. If anyone doesn’t understand the points you are making, they are more than likely simply trying to waste your time and energy.

          Too many of the opposing side’s arguments remind me of the old Big Lebowski argument of “yeah well, that’s just like, your opinion… man…” The fact is, it takes far less time to make a stupid argument than it does to refute one, even when you’ve got logic, science, and facts on your side.

        • Hey Paul. I believe a possible common ground is animal welfare. If we seek to lower animal suffering no matter in which form, we need incremental change. Let us face the fact that we vegetarians represent a very small fraction of the world. For the other 95% of the world, we need to minimize the suffering of farm animals. This means stopping CAFO’s, ending gestation crates, improving living conditions of factory farmed animals, and general animal welfare issues. I believe that animal activist organizations can (and they do) cause great help to animals by partnering with small time farmers and omnivores, who may share a common ground of improving animal welfare, to help remove some of the suffering. Thanks for the bacteria info, that was very inciteful :)

  38. Im a omnivore, I eat both plants and animals,and I was always taught to respect animals especially those that were killed for food.

    I’m just going to say this I knew a lady who lived to be 103 and ate meat and vegetables, One of my great aunts lived to be 97 and ate meat. Heck even my grandmother lived till 91 and she also ate meat. My family has eaten meat since the Great Depression, and before during the Potato Famine. There is nothing wrong with eating meat, as long as it comes from a better place And I also agree that plants don’t have a central nervous system and fruits and nuts are picked for us to eat

    I’m all for vegetarians and vegans for their opinion but I can’t survive without meat with just plants I get sick pretty much, My body needs both plants and animals to thrive, If I live to be a hundred It be pretty awesome.

    • Anoyomous. You are NOT an omnivore despite you saying it. There are always cases of people living to great ages despite eating meat or drinking heavily or smoking heavily etc. There are also meat eaters who die young so your examples really do not mean anything.
      As for you saying you cannot survive without meat and if you eat only plants you get sick then as a nutritionist I can say that you must have a pretty poor diet if that happens as it has been shown many times that a non meat diet is actually much healthier than one with meat in it providing you eat the correct foods.
      When you say there is nothing wrong with eating meat then perhaps you should tell the animals that live in poor conditions and have horrible painful deaths just for you to have a meal that your body does not need.
      How can you respect an animal that you have killed for food? That does not make sense.

      • I just meant that you can have your diet and I can have mine, and who said I was unhealthy, My doctor said I’m as fit as a horse and in great shape. I also meant the vegan/ vegetarian diet isn’t for everyone. I probably am one of the most healthiest people in my class. I eat McDonalds once in a while like once out of every six months and I walk, I swim and I play soccer and I have a big number of pets 3 cats, three hamsters, a turtle, a dog, aquarium with goldfish 55 gallons, a ten gallon beta fish tank and 4 hermit crabs in a 20 gallon. I take excellent care of my pets. They are all rescues Oh P.S. If god isn’t want us eating animals he wouldn’t have made them out of meat. If I do live to be one hundred I’d be thrilled

        Oh yeah “How can you respect an animal that you have killed as food” I thank god everyday for whatever life was taken don’t start the whole bs that plants have no pain from what I believe every living thing can feel pain. I fish my own food and pick plants and berries. God made everything for a purpose plants animals etc. I never said I was anti vegan either, can’t you just respect me eating meat even though you nice people feel it is wrong

        • No we cannot respect you for eating meat because you have caused pain and suffering to the animals. Our bodies are not designed for eating meat. We are not omnivores. We have no need for meat at all.
          As for plants having feelings then I find that very interesting as no scientific research has ever found this to be true. Plants have no central nervous system and no pain sensors.
          If you say God made animals out of meat for us to eat then why don’t you eat humans, or toads, or spiders or monkeys or lions or snakes?
          I never said you were not healthy, what I said was that a non meat diet is HEALTHIER.
          Your comment about ‘you can have your diet and I can have mine’. How would you react if a child molester said ‘you can have your morals and I can have mine’?
          A vegan cannot respect someone who pays for animals to suffer, and live a horrible life before dying a horrible painful death. Why on earth would we respect someone like that? You just don’t get it at all do you?
          You sound as if you are still in school. Forgive me if I am incorrect on that. An awful lot of illnesses caused by bad diet takes years to manifest themselves and even though you may be healthy now then there is no guarantee that will last for ever. Meat causes the body to become acidic and most illnesses flourish in an acidic environment, such as cancer, arthritis, osteoporosis etc. You are playing a game of percentages that unfortunately are not in your favour.
          You also say a vegan/vegetarian diet isn’t for everyone yet EVERY SINGLE national nutritional board around the world says that a vegan or vegetarian diet is suitable for ALL PEOPLE OF ALL AGES.
          The ONLY reason a non meat diet is not for you is because you like the taste of meat.
          Just think that every time you eat chicken that if it came from a battery farm it has lived a horrendous painful life. Also chicken is female as male chicks are no use to the industry so they are ground up ALIVE as waste. You are contributing to that.
          Don’t even get me started on ecological problems caused by animal rearing for food.
          If you don’t care about your health then try caring about the health of the rest of the world and the life of our planet.

  39. Your view is narrow and flawed. Just because you or science does not understand or explain something does not make you right. While there are issues with the way many animals are farmed not all are farmed so badly(I have seen some of those videos so I an fully understand not wanting to eat an animal treated so. Yet many are treated well.) If as is becoming clear that everything is energy and Nature is at the highest energy and is closest to “a creator”, and nature is actually quite vicious in it’s aim to survive and has no issue with killing for food then why do you think you are superior to that? First 3 is just like saying hay I only murdered one person and you murdered three that makes me better than you. Secondly, from my understanding plants, like Wilder-beasts, DO react to different stimuli they adapt their chemicals to repel different predators And, they do not just react to the light they can actively seek out potential climbing (some) posts. I wouldn’t have believed it if I hadn’t seen it with my own eyes. They also communicate between species .
    Besides, technically if you don’t want to harm animals at all you would have to grow all your veg yourself so that you could be sure no chemicals had been used as I bet not everyone is organic. Even if you are, unless you are getting your veg from a monks garden there is a good chance slugs and other “pests” have been killed, or don’t they count either (just a matter of degrees eh?) I agree that animals should be treated well and you can eat meat that has had a good life. It is this higher than mighty view that many of you have that puts me off joining you, because I have seen quite a lot of nastiness in many forums and I think to myself why would I want to be like that?

    • I understand what you are saying but I think you are missing the point. You say you can eat meat that has had a good life. Do you think that killing a baby means that baby has had a good life? All farmed animals are either babies or basically very young when they are killed. They have not had a life. Also, they are packed into lorries to travel great distances to the abbatoir where they are horribly killed before being cut up (many are not actually dead at this point and quite a few are not even stunned so they feel everything). How is this having a good life?
      If you eat meat you are killing many more bugs and pests than a non meat eater. You do not NEED meat so you literally are killing creatures for no reason at all.
      Humans are not natural omnivores. We do not need animal products in our diet. It is not only the ethical viewpoint but it involves health issues, deforestation, global warming, environmental issues etc.

      • You won’t get anywhere debating this idiot Snowsprite. His views are purely moralistic and as such cannot be argued with. There’s no room for debate with someone like that. His opinion is religious and he’s entitled to it of course, but it’s wrong when he tries to dress it up as science instead of faith and moralism.

        • hahahaha. I knew the troll could not resist answering. Religious????? hahahaha. Idiot.
          Show me anything you like and I will debunk it as I have done every time until now.
          You are just a kid who is inventing a load of rubbish and refuses to do any research or actually read any books on the subject.

          • You rudely dismiss every comment anyone makes on this forum like you own it. It’s not even your own page. I think it is you who are the troll here old man, preaching your religion that animals have a right to enjoy their lives, as if you’re speaking about a human child. It’s pathetic.

            • Once again you invent things in your head that cannot be backed up but can easily be refuted.
              You say I rudely dismiss every comment anyone makes here. Untrue. If you actually read my comments (which you have admitted you do not do) you will see that often I agree with people. So that disproves your comment immediately.
              Secondly, it is not your page either. So what is that supposed to prove? I agree with the person who created the page so it is you that is causing problems here not me according to your theory.
              Thirdly, you honestly believe animals don’t have the right to enjoy their own lives? You seriously think that only humans should enjoy their existence? Wow! You should look up the word speciesism. Perhaps you should also read the following which will show you what sort of ‘person’ you really are:
              Finally, all I am doing is refuting incorrect information (of which you are full of). I have shown, with evidence, where you have made errors. You cannot show anywhere that my information is incorrect but you do refuse to actually read any books on the subject because you know you will be proved wrong.
              It is you, young child, that is the troll.
              Please come back to the post when you have anything of significance to add because up to now you have been shown to be incorrect in everything you have said.

              • Old man you haven’t ‘proved’ or disproved anything. You just disagreed with things that were said then righteously claimed you were right. That’s not how it works old fool. But as I already said, you are a religious zealot. This isn’t about science, it’s about moralism. And yes as you don’t own this page yet reply to every single comment made on it, you are indeed a troll and this is your favourite haunt. I only return when I get emailed yet another stupid response from you with your immature words. There’s something infantile about the way you write which gives great insight into your mind and having wasted too many hours debating with other people with immature, under-developed world views I have no wish to waste any more time on such people.
                Get out of your cosy middle-class hippy idealist world and face reality. In nature some animals do not live to old age. Do you understand this? Some baby animals will die. Killed by predators. They have no ‘right’ to ‘enjoy’ life. They have no concept of dreams and hopes and aspirations for when they grow up. You are humanising them. It’s called ‘anthropomorphism’, go look it up and once you have maybe you can grow up a little. I am not saying we should torture animals or cause them extreme pain, but I don’t have a problem with eating some of them, even young ones. That is natural, and if we kill them ‘humanely’ in other words, quickly and causing little pain or fear, then we are actually doing the job more kindly than would happen in nature from a predator. So stick your so-called vegan science away cos it holds no weight with me. And put your moralising aside because that won’t work either. What you’re suggesting is an unnatural lifestyle and diet for the human animal. I’m fine with you saying you support it and enjoy it, but I’m not fine with you making spurious claims in the name of fraudulent science to give your religious ideas credibility in order to sell it to others.

                • Hahahaha. Wow you are really getting annoyed here kid aren’t you. That in itself shows that my arguments have merit.
                  Your entire comments are absolutely stupid. ‘some baby animals MAY die’ They ALL do when eaten for food, not SOME.
                  ‘They have no concept of dreams and hopes and aspirations when they grow up’ – that is one of the most stupid things you have said. Put them in a slaughter house and you will see what their concepts are – they want to live. This shows intelligence (something you are lacking in by the way). Animals do not have the same thinking process as us but their will to live is all they need. They have fun, they play, they enjoy life but you want to take it away for no actual reason as humans have no need of animal products in their diet. You are killing them just for a few minutes taste pleasure. How selfish is that?
                  Have you been to an abattoir? If you had you would see that they are not killed humanely. If they were then why don’t they stick a bolt through the head of people who are going to die anyway. Why don’t they stick a bolt through the head of a criminal on death row?
                  You conveniently ignore a huge amount of the animal kingdom with your stupid remark about some of them getting killed by predators. Idiot. Can’t you get it through your kid’s head that meat eaters kill for food. They cannot get it from the shop like you or I can. Herbivores never kill for food. Also in the wild the average age of an animal is much greater than any farmed animals so that puts your comment into the rubbish bin for removal.
                  Anyway, you are quite happily actually trying to take this away from the actual subject which you know nothing about.
                  I have put up many links from scientific studies, colleges, nutritional bodies etc that show my points to be correct. You have been unable to refute ANY of them and in fact you know you cannot. You have yet to put up anything that I have not refuted.
                  You have refused continually to actually go and get some scientific books about comparative anatomy and physiology from the library. Why? It is because you know you are wrong. That is why you are a troll.
                  Come back when you actually have any relevant information on the subject in question.
                  Once again you show that you are unable to actually read and understand other peoples’ comments. I am not vegan but I am a qualified physiologist and nutritional specialist. I have studied comparative anatomy and physiology for over 25 years and know what I am talking about – unlike you, but that is pretty obvious to anyone reading your comments.
                  Some of your ridiculous comments;
                  1.’Most herbivores have multi- chambered stomachs’. hahahahahahaah WRONG
                  2.’Most herbivores eat stones’. hahahahaha wrong
                  3.’Even so, only 20% of their total nutrition actually comes from the plants themselves, the other 80% in fact comes from the bacteria they culture in their stomachs’. hahahahah OMG this really made me laugh. You have NO idea at all do you? So out of the many lbs of food that an animal (lets just pick a cow, it could be any animal though) eats only 1/5 of it is converted to nutrition and 80% comes from a tiny amount (in volume and calories) of bacteria in their body? So if they ate this bacteria (which they don’t) then they would have to produce the same amount again by their next meal time. So by definition the 20% of their plant intake (which ANYONE realises is not enough calories to feed the animal) is used to feed them and create a further 80% of nutrition. Do you have ANY idea at all how utterly stupid this is? Perhaps you should read up on the conservation of energy and thermo dynamics laws.
                  4. (and this is a real gem from you) ‘Even if we did have an identical digestive system to a cow, which we really don’t, the cow is still culturing bacteria in it’s stomach to feed off, which we can’t and don’t do’. Once again OMG. You are using a cow (ruminant) as an example against a human. Even you admit we do not have the same digestive system of a cow but still use it to try (unsucessfully) to prove your point. Your point about them feeding off their bacteria is totally wrong (as shown in point 3) and anyway why compare a non-ruminant with a ruminant? This clearly shows you have absolutely no conception of the subject matter whatsoever.
                  ONCE AGAIN I ASK YOU TO GO TO THE LIBRARY AND GET OUT SOME BOOKS ON COMPARATIVE ANATOMY AND PHYSIOLOGY. You will see that what I, and others here, say is true. You can come back and apologise later.
                  You have yet to show me anything that I have said which is wrong but I have continually shown you up to be a total troll who is here not to learn or impart knowledge but just to be a total pain in the ass.
                  Go back to school kid. You missed out the first time.

                • And by the way Mr Duis(sic). From your comments it is obvious that you haven’t even read the original thread on here which puts a lot of your comments into the stupid box.

              • This Paul Hughes (sic) idiot is the BIGGEST egotist I’ve ever seen on a Vegan thread. It’s quite incredible that some people can be so deluded and so full of themselves with so little to show for it. I must turn off the notifications for comments on this thread now cos it keeps reminding me he even exists.

                • Hahaha. Someone has rattled your cage Rex Duis (sic). My name is real by the way.
                  Your stupid comments about veganism being expensive just shows how little you understand about the subject. It is much cheaper eating vegetables than eating meat. I have traveled extensively and have hardly ever found anywhere where it is cheaper eating a meat based diet than a plant based diet. Just go to your local supermarket and check out the prices.
                  Please feel free to turn off notifications because each time you comment you look like a bigger idiot than the previous time.

                • Oh yes, and re the point on “grass-based plants”…. the only grasses our cattle ate, where inedible to humans. You know damn well that’s what I was referring to. What a child you are. The kinds of grasses humans make products from are not the kind generally found in an ordinary field a farmer might put their cattle in. Obviously the varieties of pasture plants will vary depending on the country, but any edible plants that humans might happen to find in pasture would be wild sown and the cows are gonna still be easting that pasture regardless of whether you slaughter them or not… which actually brings me to another point for you and the woman who runs this site.

                  What happens to all the animals that currently exist if we all go Vegan overnight? The Green Party in Australia banned sales of beef to Indonesia overnight once apparently, due to bad conditions and treatment of the animals. What do you think happened to the beasts then? Were they allowed to frollick freely across valuable pastureland? Will farmers just liberate these animals? How will they earn an income for their families without animals to slaughter?

                  Ok, so they turn to growing crops… they could live off that.. but that means there’s no room for the cattle anymore, so where do the cows and sheep and pigs and chickens and deer and goats go guys? They can’t keep them on their farms… and we can’t release them into National Parks or let them roam freely through open spaces like beaches or reserves… some animals are very destruction to native habitats…. What do you think will happen to them?

                  You see, you people mean well, but you are idealists and haven’t really thought this through beyond the whole ‘don’t kill and eat them’ bit. You imagine rosy pictures of baby animals bouncing around on green grass under warm sun, playing around their mothers legs, like some doe-eyed Bambi movie… but without a function for humans, these animals would simply not exist. They would all be killed and except for deer, pigs and goats who are fine going feral and surviving in the wild, the others would just become curiosities in a zoo. We bred these animals for our use.. even our beloved pet dogs…. which come in a wide variety of breeds, would die without us. Many could not fend for themselves in the wild. We have bren unnatural traits into many of them. I just don’t think you’ve REALLY thought this all the way through.

              • *Yawn* You again old man? My name is real too, what’s your point? (sic) doesn’t mean someones name is false. If you don’t know what it means, you probably shouldn’t use it.

                • First of all the name I use is my name whereas yours is not. Fact.
                  Secondly I suggest that as a child you might consider doing some research about the amount of plant matter that animals eat compared to humans.

                  By the way, humans eat plenty of grass. You should actually look up what grass based plants we eat. You are now showing a horrible ignorance of botany as well as physiology and anatomy. It is quite pathetic really.

                  I thought you were turning off your notifications? Another lie from you. Typical young kid.
                  Calling me old is a compliment. Thank you for that. I appreciate it. :-) However I find nothing to compliment you about but I still appreciate your compliment.

                • I have unticked notifications on this thread, yet for some reason I’m still getting them. I’m not sure why. I guess I will just have to put into the spam filter and send directly to trash.

                  “First of all the name I use is my name whereas yours is not. Fact.”
                  WTF? I said you were arrogant and THAT is a Fact mate. How dare you presume to know my name?! What an outrageous slander. I’ve already stated, I too use my real name on here. On what grounds do you base this slanderous allegation Paul Hughes?

                  You really are incredibly stupid and arrogant and presumptious. Who the hell do you think you are to go around claiming someone is using a fake name when they’ve stated it is real? We may disagree on many things, and I don’t really care what you think about diet or animal welfare frankly, it’s not going to change my opinions any more than my thoughts will change yours, clearly, but persisting in accusing someone of using a fake name even when they have denied it crosses a line for me.

                  It would be terribly easy for you to verify I exist you arrogant old fool. Just as I can, in a very cursory glance verify you are real too. Let’s see… You live with your wife Karen in Antibes, France where you’re friends with an optician called Stéphane correct? You grew up in Ebbw Vale, Wales then moved to study in Blackpool where you were in your schools Astronomical Society yes? You’re a supporter of gay marriage and have the Candy Crush app on your phone and played it as recently as 23 hours ago. You used to work for the European Telecommunications Standards Institute. You did a creative writing course in Northern Ireland in 2012, it snowed while you were in the hotel. You have friends living in the little English seaside town of Selsey. And ohhh you’re an English teacher… well no wonder you have such a condescending attitude. Former professional Squash player.. author of several fantasy novels (yes one can see you’re very good at fantasy)… you didn’t study physiology and nutrition until you were in your mid-30’s, so quite late in the game. I could go on but I’ve proved my point.

                  As you can see there is an absolute wealth of information one can find on the internet with very little effort, and a whole lot more were one to invest an hour or two. I’m sure you could dig up much more on me in the same amount of time Paul, so to persist in claiming my name is fake makes you either the most ignorant old internet trog I’ve ever met, or the silliest most up-yourself prat around. Who’s the idiot now ay?

                • Wow Rex (sic) you actually are very good at something after all. That something is not understanding the subject we are talking about here.
                  What will happen to the animals if the world goes vegan overnight?????? Really????? You honestly think the world will go vegan overnight? You must be incredibly stupid to think that could happen. Unless a law was passed in every single country in the world at exactly the same time then it would not happen. Just engage brain before putting pen to paper will you?
                  Thanks for being a stalker by the way. You got some of the facts correct but quite a few are wrong. You need to access my fb page again and actually read it (something you seem to have trouble doing) and see where your errors are. This seems to be a common error in your makeup – you look at something and either do not understand it or just invent something to fit your viewpoint.
                  I have no need to invest wasted time in trying to stalk you but feel free to continue stalking me if that gets you excited. Better than playing with toys and dolls I suppose.
                  You make the absurd comment that if animals were replaced by crops on farms there would be no room for any animals. Really??????
                  If you do any research you will see that the amount of crops needed to feed one cow is huge compared to one human. By simple maths (maybe you have not studied maths yet) you will see that with fewer animals to feed the growing number of vegans (I am not a vegan by the way and keep telling you this) then a huge amount of land would be freed. 85% of deforestation in the Amazon is used to create land for cattle. A fraction of this could be used for growing crops for humans.
                  The united nations and world health organisation seem to believe what I say is correct but you seem to think you know better than these organisations. You really are unbelievably ignorant of the facts behind all of this aren’t you?
                  You talk about only deer, goat an pigs would survive if we became vegans. This is one of the most stupid things you have said yet and I am having trouble typing because I am laughing so much. Do you think cows and sheep were created out of thin air for us to consume? They already existed and lived quite happily in the wild and could do so once again. It is no wonder vegans laugh at people like you who have no idea of what they are talking about.
                  It is quite obvious you have never read any of the links I put up or the last link which explains in greater detail the points I have already made.
                  Go back to believing things you have invented and I will continue to read and research actual facts produced by Universities, Government sites and scientific studies.

                • lol. I remember you. I debunked your ass a while ago. Paul is a friend, and knows much more than you about physiology and what makes humans thrive. You resorting to calling him old man seems like a desperate attempt to create an exit from the convo with some self dignity. I’m 52. You wanna call me old man? This old man could not only easily debunk your uneducated ass, but also physically put your excuse making ass on the floor inside of two seconds. Chump ass excuse maker

                • Hahahaha… old fool. So in other words, no you don’t know how to use the internet. As I thought. Let me know if you want some help opening your browser won’t you.

                  You pathetically continue to insist my name is not real. Why? You won’t provide an explantion for this. I think you’re just doing it in an infantile attempt to annoy me for you surely cannot be this thick as to continue.

                  How is someone a stalker, when you make information publicly available on several sites, as well as Facebook? If you don’t want someone to read something, then don’t share it. Simple. If you need some help changing your privacy settings gramps, let me know.

                  You do like to go around correcting everyone don’t you. Most of your book reviews are ‘nice, but it was spoiled by errors’ and ‘they could have written this bit better’…. you’re a patronising **** basically.

                  The rest of what you wrote, re animals, is total drivel Paul. You keep insisting you are so accurate and run around stating ‘facts’ all the time… but I think it is you who doesn’t really read what people are saying properly. You won’t want you. You just want an excuse to try and lord your ego over someone else. I did not, for example, state that only deer, pigs and goats would survive humanity becoming vegans… where did I state that? I believe what I said was, that those were the only domesticated animals that could realistically adapt to a feral life in the wild, and that much is true. Other domesticated animals would struggle and others would simply fail to survive. Please read properly first grandad because getting your knickers in a twist.

                  Could cows and sheep survive if turned wild? Perhaps in some locations yes, in others, most definitely not. African farm animals would fall to predators fairly quickly. I guess sheep might be ok in New Zealand and Wales, but then, why on earth would humans allow these beasts to roam free, even if we stopped eating them.
                  Are you actually suggesting humans would stop milking cows and goats? That we’d just leave the sheeps fleece to fall off and rot? That we would shun entirely ALL animal products?
                  You see, you can’t just stop consuming their flesh, the Vegans aim is to end total use of animals for any resource at all whatsoever…. this is not only naive, it’s unrealistic.

                  But even if it were possible for the sake of your fairy tale utopia Paul, would humans allow those animals to just roam around freely? No, of course they wouldn’t. They would have to fence them in, or fence them out at least, of certain areas… such as the crops humans would be growing. Deforestation isn’t only to farm cattle. You’re being utterly disingenuous and dishonest here. You know damn well that harvesting the wood, and clearing space for Palm Oil plantations is a major cause of this problem, but as it doesn’t suit your narrative you conveniently gloss over this.

                  Lastly, I really don’t care what the united nations or any other quack group recommends. Most large organisation bodies and governments have ties to corporate funding and if not, are under significant corporate pressure from lobbying. Heard of the TPP and TTIP? These groups are not stopping these ‘trade agreements’ from passing are they. How naive you are old man. Gosh, next you’ll be telling me that the FDA and American cancer and heart foundations are 100% accurate in all their info, give only 100% perfect advice, never lie or cover up information or new research or have links to corporate interference…. hahahahaha.. I’m laughing at the keyboard now so much. You have too much invested in academia and your own status on paper to ever question the very authorities whom, at some cost no doubt, bestowed those magical certificates upon you which give you authority to be wrong with credibility.

                  Ok, I’m done now here. I take comfort knowing that you will die long before I will Paul. Excuse me while I go change my name to something more believable for you, since having a surname based on a German city of half a million people is obviously far fetched, and I’ll add to the harrassing Spam filters so I don’t have to read any more of your drivel. Byeeee!

                • I am so glad you are leaving (again) because it will save me the time of showing you up one more time. You have consistently shown a lack of knowledge on the subject matter so have turned to stalking me on the internet. Yes, stalking. It does not matter if information is in the public domain or not. You should look up the meaning of the word stalking……oh wait, you refuse to look up anything which is why you are so wrong on just about every point you make.
                  Your latest comments once again are totally incorrect. You do realise why cows need to be milked don’t you? They don’t produce milk ad nauseam. Once again you really should read some books on the subject. Luckily because I am much older than you I have done this and continue to do it.
                  Your attempt at insulting me and saying things like I will be dead before you seem silly as my life has been filled with a huge amount of things and with great success as well. IF you live as long as me (and that is doubtful) then good luck to you. Your comments are similar to someone who has done nothing at all calling someone else who has had huge success a has-been. You are too young and stupid to realise that your comments just emphasise how immature and lacking in intelligence you are. It is sad that someone so young is so bitter and twisted and totally unable to find out basic facts about the subject matter but is quite happy stalking someone else in the vain hope of trying to get one over on that person (very unsuccessfully as well – you have misread my biography and missed out facts such as my being British Squash Champion twice, runner up in the World Championships once, ranked world number 2 in squash and also world number one in another sport as well). What have you done? Nothing I suspect and from the way you talk you are incredibly unlikely to ever achieve anything. Come back in the future and show me any accomplishments that you have achieved and also apologise at the same time for the very basic errors you make on every single comment.
                  By the way, I love how you totally dismiss major health organisations, universities and independent studies just to try and justify the drivel that you spout. Good luck with that in the future.
                  Good bye and good riddance uninformed child.

                • I just re read your comment. lol.
                  You said ‘So in other words, no you don’t know how to use the internet.’
                  I suppose not wanting to become a stalker like you means I don’t know how to use the internet? I have no interest in finding out about you. How self important do you think you are? You are a nobody and never will be anybody.
                  I guess you haven’t dug deep enough on my history to find out that I have made many tv appearances, done huge amount of work for charity raising millions of pounds for children in need around the world, have contacts with many high profile stars in every field, personal friends with royalty around the world and finally have qualifications to back up my comments. What have you got?…….nothing.
                  You mock the fact that I went to University in my 30’s to study physiology and nutrition. You seem to not realise that before this I studied the subjects but had no qualifications. That is why I completed a 4 year course in under 18 months and finished top in every category in my exams. I did it just to get the actual qualifications so idiots like you could not say I am not qualified to make my comments (unlike you who have no knowledge of the subject matter and constantly show yourself up).
                  You seem to think I cannot use a computer or the internet yet you have already stalked me enough to see where I used to work and somehow you cannot put two and two together to realise how that company works……… but why put facts in the way of an interesting invention from inside that silly little kid’s head of yours eh?

  40. Pingback: Speciesism - why don't we take it more seriously? - Page 3·

  41. No doubt plants are alive. So is everything in the natural world for that matter; even rocks. Having said that, there are numerous good reasons why plants are a better choice for food than animals. On a philosophical level, we as humans have for the most part evolved to the point where we have the ability to make decisions that discern varying degrees of moral or ethical correctness. If that wasn’t the case, we would have no compunction about eating our fellow humans. It was done before and we might revert to that if no other food sources were available, however we have essentially evolved out of that given the availability of other choices. With that ability to discriminate, I am sure you would find a difference between eating a cow and eating your mother. Such a difference also exists between eating a plant and eating an animal. There is more intelligence in all living things than we tend to acknowledge, and perhaps there may be much we don’t know about plants. However, whether or not plants have consciousness or feel pain, from that level of discerning moral or ethical correctness, it falls short of that of animals. We keep plants in our house as decoration, but we raise animals as pets because they have a level of sentience that allows us to connect with them on an emotional level. Animals recognize, raise, and protect family, and they are capable of a high degree of expression of feelings of happiness and sadness. Do you think this level of sentience exists only for animals that we decide to raise in our homes and lavish our love upon? Is there not some implicit hypocrisy in this? Most people who choose to eat meat buy it in pieces nicely packaged from a sanitized supermarket. What if we had to be responsible for all our own food? I would feel much more comfortable about going into a garden and picking some carrots and greens then having to watch an animal squeal in pain and agony as I slit its throat, not to mention the process of preparing a carcass for food. What about you? And that doesn’t take into account the unthinkable misery inflicted upon animals throughout their entire existence from birth till death if they are factory farmed. I know there is an argument for eating “humanely and ethically raised” animals. However, that’s a pipe dream, as it is not sustainable or possible as the world demand for animal protein continues to grow, except perhaps on a small scale to placate the consciences of a small group of people who can afford the high cost. On a practical level, the issue of treading as lightly on the earth as possible is becoming ever more relevant. By most estimates, except among the most ardent of deniers, our modern lifestyles are inflicting catastrophic and perhaps irreversible damage on our environment. Food plays a big role in that. Scientists estimate that by 2050 there may be no fish left in the oceans due to overfishing. A 2008 article in the New York Times notes “an estimated 30 percent of the earth’s ice-free land is directly or indirectly involved in livestock production, according to the United Nation’s Food and Agriculture Organization, which also estimates that livestock production generates nearly a fifth of the world’s greenhouse gases — more than transportation.” Again, except for those who have an agenda that mandates denial, the effects of climate change on the world are pretty much undeniable. Beyond that, resources that we once took for granted are going to become highly sought after commodities. The amounts of energy and water needed to sustain livestock production are enormous. Have you heard about what’s happening to the Ogallala Aquifer? A centuries old shallow water table aquifer located beneath the Great Plains may soon run dry as we have pumped it with impunity to water thirsty crops of corn and soy meant only to feed livestock. As long as we as humans walk on the face of the earth we will always have an impact on the environment; there is no way to avoid that. That is the case even when we raise plants for food. However, there are different levels of impact, and we as guardians of this planet have a moral imperative to minimize that impact to the degree that we can. One of the very important ways that I am aware of to do that is eschew animal protein in favor of a plant-based diet.

  42. Pingback: Why I Went Vegan – The Ethical Compulsion | Dhawal Tank's Personal Blog·

  43. I had a discussion with a woman recently. She was talking about how plants feel pain. Said that she couldn’t go vegan because she would be thinking all the time about how the plants feel pain. She knows that animals feel pain too but couldn’t function at all because she would just be so worried about the plants and their pain so – really i do believe she knew she would be talking to me and the topic would come up (re veganism) and had this pretty little argument nicely circled up. Really she did not want to be confronted about her choice to eat cow, pig, chicken etc. and just threw this one at me and, quite frankly i was gob-smacked at her ignorance and lack of any desire to move toward conscience and discuss and find a way to best sort out her dilemma.

  44. I’m very sorry to say that you have not demonstrated that plants are not sentient and frankly, you’re not even near. Furthermore, there is an alternative that you have not even considered and that individual cells are in fact sentient. There is plant of evidence that sentience is at the cellular level and to think of a plant or animal as a single thing is nothing but a projection of our experience of ‘us-ness’ onto other things.

    • Certain bacteria, when faced with a catastrophe of sorts such as chemicals in the water that cannot be escaped, will emit a battle cry, which is chemical signaling; this results in the bacterial population to coalesce into a tight ball formation. When the chemicals hit, the bacteria on the outer layers will die but hopefully by the time that chemicals disappear from the water, the bacteria protected in the inside of the ball will be able to multiply again. Similarly in flagellated algae such as Chlamydomonas reinhardtii, they use flagella to swim on the surface of water. If there are negative environmental stimuli, they will exhibit negative chemitaxis, i.e, they will swim away from it. If they cannot escape, they will self-excise their flagella and float to the bottom of the pond; they focus on regrowing their flagella and then swim back up to the cell surface where hopefully, the negative stimuli (acidic pH, chemicals etc) have largely disappeared.

      The problem is that the definition of sentience is not the same for everyone. As you can see, even unicellular organisms like bacteria (in which flagellated members also exhibit chemotaxis) and algae avoid harmful situations. Gary Francione’s litmus test for sentience is “can they suffer?” Suffering as a word implies an awareness of the organism to harm being visited upon it. In the past, suffering/pain was traditionally thought to happen only in humans because it was thought that the awareness (consciousness) of pain required an advanced neocortex, which is also needed for consciousness. Now, prominent neuroscientists have declared that animals without advanced cortices have achieved consciousness states similar to humans, but these animals still all have nervous systems. Plants have never been shown to have a nervous system, and there is no proof that a chemical system can fully replicate the autonomic, enteric, and parasympathetic nervous systems of higher organisms.

      In short, there is no evidence that plants exhibit qualities that imply an awareness of suffering.

      • I was with you until the end paulhughes2014. I was with you until you say, “… there is no proof that a chemical system can fully replicate the autonomic, enteric, and parasympathetic nervous systems of higher organisms.”

        To say there is no evidence does not imply anything. There is no evidence there is not a teapot orbiting Mars… Producing the lack of evidence of something to substantiate your theory is a bit weak. All I have to do is to present a coherent theory of panpyschism (all things are conscious) and you’re left hanging. Your case (at least the sentence I quoted) is based on nothing more than guesswork.

        On the upside at least your not claiming it’s the brain that makes one organism higher than another, but choosing the CNS as your benchmark is just as dubious.

        For my own part I am happy to consider that some things suffer and don’t suffer but can’t except that the CNS as the arbitrary cut-off-point.

        • I see what you are saying Ben, but you have not shown that plants have anything near sentience. I am not even sure what you are trying to say to be honest.
          Please present a coherent theory of panpyschism and I am quite convinced that I will not be left ‘hanging’ at all.
          Stick a knife in a carrot and stick another knife in a rabbit and see the different reactions.
          As farmed animals eat far more plants than we do to produce meat for us then by eating plants we are saving many from the horrible pain and suffering that you think plants go through.
          Animals kill other animals in the wild for food. That is nature and some animals are carnivorous or omnivorous. Humans are overwhelmingly, physiologically and anatomically, herbivorous. So why are we even eating animals? We should be doing what our bodies are hardwired to do – eat plants.

  45. paulhuges2014, if you want to discuss, lets clear up a few things. Let’s stick to facts, plain speaking and drop the assumptions. For example, lets agree to use words by their normal dictionary definitions, unless jointly agreed that there is a very good reason not to so. Therefore, when talking about sentience lets use the common definition (ie, Oxford dictionary: “to be able to perceive things”) or discuss why it’s inappropriate and then change after mutual agreement.

    Secondly, lets not make assumptions. For example, there is no reason to assume that I’m not vegan and thus waste time presenting vegan arguments rather than discus the issue of plant sentience – it’s a distraction! For the record, not only am I vegan but I also don’t eat root vegetables as it needlessly kills plants. And to answer your question, why do we eat animals, them my reply is, “I don’t know and I wish we wouldn’t”.

    So if we can agree to use standard English then we must also agree, I think, that plants are sentient and you you clearly know this as single celled organisms are sentient by your own admission with respect to algae. Algae, mold and other singular celled creatures demonstrate tasks such as associative learning, sensing their surrounding environment and achieving complex group decision making while living in complex social groups all without a brain, or central nervous system.

    With respect to being left hanging, I really think you are, but you just don’t notice it. In fact, it seems to me, that you and Francione have made nooses for your own necks with your Abolitionist arguments and I have told him so several times. I am talking here about arguments like plants aren’t sentient, when anyone can see they are (meat-eaters and most vegans alike). If you want to win that kind of argument with meat-eaters you are, IMO, better off claiming plants doesn’t feel pain but yet still recognizing that that itself is at best dubious (but dubious is clearly better than clearly wrong)..

    And just to labour the point, plants have all the same senses as humans, and then some. In addition to hearing, taste, for example, they can sense gravity, the presence of water, or even feel that an obstruction is in the way of its roots, before coming into contact with it. Plant roots will shift direction to avoid obstacles. In addition, plants respond to anesthetics. “You can put a plant out with a human anesthetic. … And not only that, plants produce their own compounds that are anesthetic to us.” In addtion plants remember stresses and events and have the ability to respond to 15 to 20 environmental variables.

    This being so, then anyone with a dictionary can win the argument that plants and even bacteria are sentient (because they perceive things and we know this because they react to the things perceived).

    With that cleared up, I’ll repost my original reaction to the article:

    “I’m very sorry to say that you have not demonstrated that plants are not sentient and frankly, you’re not even near. Furthermore, there is an alternative that you have not even considered and that individual cells are in fact sentient. There is plant of evidence that sentience is at the cellular level and to think of a plant or animal as a single thing is nothing but a projection of our experience of ‘us-ness’ onto other things.”

    Clearly plant sentience causes a problem for a thinking vegan, but that’s no excuse to stop thinking. If I may suggest a solution to the problem of why we kill sentient plants and not sentient animals then we should start talking about ‘person-hood’. However, that again, is a distraction and with respect to plant sentience you do seem to be left hanging… Thoughts?

  46. paulhughes2014 I offered terms of discussion that were acceptable to me (and I hoped you) to build our conversation on but I guess it is hopeless. For the record I don’t care if you are a physiologist, nutritionist, vegan, cross-dresser, or stamp collector but it is the quality of your arguments that interest me.

    Like I said, if you don’t like the definitions, then we can discuss the reasons why, but just to say it’s wrong with no supporting reasons is pointless.

    And the articles that you quoted as backup for your point – geez! If that’s the depth of your argument then good luck convincing anyone.

    • Your problem is easily resolved by examining simply the definitions (or mis-definitions) of pain and sentience. Plants do not have a brain, or nerves or nerve structures to handle information, which can include any number of stimuli. All living things, from bacteria on up, have some various means of sensing things in their environment, including nutrients, sunlight, chemical threats, or the threat of being eaten, to name a few. Animals have many such abilities, in part because they are highly evolved to avoid any and all threats they can, by moving away, or other means, and as well, they are expert at finding the nutrients they need. Animals with more advanced such systems evolve more complex information processing abilities, which may progress to sentience, consciousness, awareness, emotions, and all the rest. Pain is one way brains process information from certain nerves and stimuli, in order to get the animals attention to solving a danger or threat, and it’s unpleasant, and animals (including us) suffer in part because of the need to avoid those threats. As Vegans, we wish to avoid any unnecessary use or exploitation of animals that would cause them these types of unpleasant experiences, or would otherwise usurp their right, such as it may be, to live their own lives without our influence if possible. Now, plants, like animals, also have various means of collecting information about their environment. In many cases, new research even shows that the various signals moving around in the plant are more similar to nerves than once thought, since they’re often electrochemical in nature. But they move more slowly, and the plants don’t have specific nerves and importantly, have no central information processing capabilities. In short, they have no brain. Without that, they cannot be conscious or sentient or feel pain (which again, is not a real thing, but the way the brain interprets certain info to us to get us to take needed actions). The fact that plants have many ways to deal with various threats should not surprise. They’ve been evolving far longer than we have. some plants have many hundreds of chromosomes, far more than our paltry 23 pairs, so many of their capabilities are very complex. that’s part of why their biochemistry provides so many nutrients that our own bodies cannot make. Plants have subtle and complex ways to sense and react to stimuli. But these are direct stimuli and response, such as touch this hair, and those cells over there produce a chemical in response. There is no brain. No structure that could produce the type of awareness or sentience or consciousness that would be required to turn a negative stimulus into the experience of pain. Plants do not feel pain, because for one thing, they do not actually “feel”, which again is a brain function. They have means to sense and react, sometimes with exquisitely complex and specific chemical and electrochemical mechanisms, but this is not the same as pain. You can bite into a plant or cut off a leaf, and the plant’s chemistry will quickly react to the threat. But that’s not the same as feeling pain. A plant under attack may release chemicals that cause neighboring plants to also react, to an insect attack for example, making them less likely to also be eaten. But this isn’t language. It’s not talking. And the initial response is not pain. It’s fascinating, but you should not feel guilt over eating plants. You are not causing suffering. They react, their chemistry and electrochemistry does various things. sometimes even reacting with motion, but this should not be thought of as pain or suffering. It isn’t. They simply are not designed or built to experience things with anything like a mind. They don’t have one.

    • I see you have no articles to back up anything you put up.
      Maybe you don’t care what my qualifications are but I am infinitely more qualified to talk about this subject than you are.
      Another hole in your entire argument is this:
      I suppose you realise that if plants are as sentient as you make out then you are incredibly cruel. You eat fruit and nuts I suppose. How do you think the plant feels when it hears you approach and see you take its babies and eat them in front of the plant. You are quite happy eating its babies. Think of the suffering it goes through. Surely taking a carrot and killing it quickly is much better than the pain you put parents through?
      You are confused about the meaning of “perceive”. I’m not sure why you didn’t continue using your dictionary for that word as well but you are *clearly* mistaken that plants and single-celled organisms are by definition sentient. You have been refuted by your own argument and everything else that comes after is pointless. Reaction is not the same as perception.
      Perhaps you understand that because you seem not able to understand other basic things about the subject matter.

      • You noticed I didn’t post any articles, did you paulhuges2014 – well done! Did you work that out all by yourself? Next see if you can work out why (hint: the word ‘pointless’ with respect to they type of discussion you wish to debate in (ie, half-baked pseudo arguments, self-aggrandisement and sarcastic put downs). Whether you know it or not your doing nothing but trolling.

        • I notice you have not worked out how to spell my name.
          You say ‘pointless’ but what you mean is ‘damn you have shown me up as someone who does not understand the subject matter. I had better not show him how little I know about it anymore so let’s try and upset him by calling him a troll’.

          I, however, have explained why plants do not feel pain and cannot be sentient.
          Pain is ‘felt’ in the brain only. This is why people can get phantom pains after a body part has been amputated in surgery. The nerve and the body part no longer exist so it is impossible to feel pain from the foot, for example, because it does not exist. However, the pain is ‘real’ because the BRAIN is creating it.

          ‘Damage-detecting sensory neurons flash a message to the spinal cord, spinal cord neurons relay the message to the brain, and the brain decides (a) damage has occurred, (b) it has been inflicted on the toe, and (c) something needs to be done’.
          It is the brain and only the brain that decides if you feel pain or not.
          This cannot happen with a plant.
          You are obviously not interested in the science behind it so just perpetuate your ‘I heard in from a friend down the pub so it must be correct’ attitude.
          You are most certainly the troll as you are arguing against science and not showing anything other than your own opinion (which is worthless unless it is backed up with some facts).
          I think I have shown you up enough now. Please feel welcome to come back when you can actually show some science behind your argument otherwise it really is pointless.

            • Why start again. You have nothing of value to add as you have made many errors in your statements.
              As for the ‘put downs’ I suggest you go back to your original posts and see who started the put downs. It certainly wasn’t me.
              Trolling? I have given a lot of links and a lot of evidence to back up what I am saying. You, however, have done no such thing. You are trying to cause an argument with inflammatory and untrue statements. That is a classic troll.
              Goodbye and good riddance.

              • Mate, the point where I offered some rules of discussion was the time when I was ready to have a serious discussion. Go back, look at your reply. You ignored all my suggested ground-rules with no comment about why. And you call me a troll.

                And let’s see if your as good as your word and really let me get the last word. Troll!

            • I have not said anywhere that I would let you get the last word. I did not say I wouldn’t either. Once again you assume things that are not true. I said goodbye and good riddance because I thought you would maybe crawl back under the stone you came from after being shown as incorrect.
              As for calling me a troll I suggest you go back to the dictionary you seem to love so well and look up the word. You fall neatly into its description. I simply agree with the thread and am defending it with scientific arguments. You are here to give your opinion and cause arguments by trying to impose YOUR rules on the discussion.

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